Swiss or clone? Please help to spot

[bee23]

Got this two SubC swiss from two different TD, try search, read but too many info and one of the movement have incabloc. Can you help me to confirm if both are swiss or atleast with swiss parts on the movement. Thanks for the help.

SUBC Swiss A

SUBC Swiss B

 

[sixstrings]

Looks like used Swiss in both. IMHO.

The curve in the casting by the ETA stamp is a good sign. Also the sharp V at 120 degrees apart on the retainer for the second one.

 

[Xebryus]

Both look Swiss to me

 

[SSTEEL]

Agree, both look mostly Swiss. The rotors, and covers are not Swiss though.

 

[Luthier]

Curved cutoffs are on all clones since 2010.

 

[sixstrings]

They are not curved on any of the A2836 I have received this year....

 

[amperes]

please check by the adjustment screw the +/- area. never seen before like this. eta markings are poor as well. i say both are clones.

cheers

 

[SSTEEL]

They are not curved on any of the A2836 I have received this year....

That's a clone, and the rotor stick on emblem is completely unbalanced, and looks like it may come off at anytime.

 

[sixstrings]

Yes I know it is a clone. I was showing they still have the straight cut by the emblem.

But I will remove the stick on rotor plate. Thanks.

 

[Raddave]

It is odd that both units have the same type of square regulator cutouts. which i have never seen before myself. Esp coming from 2 diff sources.

But both look to be used swiss to me.

Unit A with its incabloc shock system looks to have a jeweled bearing replaced with a steel bearing on the autowind module.

Unit B with the Novodiac system has the 3 cutouts for the jewel holder spring. The spring has the correct shape. Also it has a 17 jewel rotor with a 25 jewel autowind module. So its either a 17 jewel 2836 with a later model autowind module, or a 25 jewel 2836 with a early model rotor.

Both units have what I consider to be clear ETA flowers, and also show signs of repair (or at least dissassembly and reassembly) on the screws and on the stem release buttons.

Also the curved cutouts near the balance wheel area is a good sign.


Id have to go with both used swiss.....

 

[amperes]

does somebody still believe in the «used eta» fairy tail? really? just look at the overall finish of the movements and ask yourself if swiss production, which is all about perfection, would look like this...

cheers

 

[Raddave]

does somebody still believe in the «used eta» fairy tail? really? just look at the overall finish of the movements and ask yourself if swiss production, which is all about perfection, would look like this...

cheers

Well im looking at the screws and the stem release button and the fact that one of the jeweled bearings had been replaced with a steel bearing and the scratches on some of the gears, and scratches and dings on the mainplates to determine the USED status.

Would you agree with that? They are definitely not new units.

I suppose its possible that they are both used clones, but they are convincing clones. Ive never seen an Incabloc on a clone before either, but i suppose its possible.

And givin the cost to replace a clone vs repair a clone....once again its possible, but probable? Im not so sure.


But then again, Maybe they are making them LOOK used for this very reason.

 

[bee23]

Thanks for all the input very informative but still can't figure which is which although both keeps good time. I got the two subc with cosmetic flaws so I want to interchange the parts to fix the flaws as possible, for the movement which one do you think I must choose?

 

[iamthestig]

Yeah looks to be swiss. My Asian clone swiss movements have the "Tweny One Jewels" spelling mistake on rotor and then the engraved 2836 spacing is different and not as clear.

 

[Raddave]

Thanks for all the input very informative but still can't figure which is which although both keeps good time. I got the two subc with cosmetic flaws so I want to interchange the parts to fix the flaws as possible, for the movement which one do you think I must choose?

They are both swiss and both good.
But i see potential problems with both A and B
A has had a jeweled bearing replaced with a not so desirable steel bearing on the autowind module
B might be a 17 jewel 2836 with a 25 jewel autowind module on it.


What would I do? Id use unit A with the autowind module from unit B.

Its an easy swap. With the rotor off remove the 2 black screws and pop the whole autowind module off. Swap them and just be sure the gears are meshed properly before tightening.

 

[amperes]

this is how a swiss movement looks like. see the differences?

cheers

 

[Raddave]

These are also swiss movements, but older, also note the square regulator cutouts

 

[amperes]

These are also swiss movements, but older, also note the square regulator cutouts

i see, thanks. but i never heard of zenith using eta movements. they manufacture their own movements.

cheers

 

[KBH]

It's easy. They are both old ETA movements. Both are 17j 2836-2 rather than the newer 25j.
Even the rotor on the first says 17 jewel movement.

 

[tanweekiat]

Swiss for both