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Stuck bezel on 382

pure b

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Hi guys,

I just received my PAM 382 from a m2m deal. I cleaned it up with some lemon juice and nearly all the patina came off except the corossion underneath the bezel. The bezel is stuck in place and I can't get a tiny bit of movement into it. It wouldn't be a problem if the bezel was centered but it is a bit off.

Does anyone else have this problem and how did you fix it?

Cheers
 

pure b

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I'll try to soak it in WD40 one of these days. Baby oil didnt do the trick
 

idinwo01

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I'll try to soak it in WD40 one of these days. Baby oil didnt do the trick

Wait!

Do not stick the whole watch in WD40!

I would just avoid WD40 (Water Deterrent 40) a.k.a Grime Attractor 40. You are going to create a mess more likely than fix your problem.
 

pure b

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Oke thanks for the warning.

What could I do? Butter wont come underneath the bezel
 

idinwo01

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Here is a thread discussing removal of the bezel for a different PAM.

http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/...orial-Bezel-on-your-243-V1-or-V2-got-you-down

I would say your first priority is not necessarily moving the bezel, but removing it. By removing the bezel, you can analyze the what was causing the issue and problem solve. Rotation without removal will either: A. Not work, B. Work, and perform well, C. Work, and perform poorly, D. Break the watch. Only 1/4 options has a good outcome, 1/2 will make you not want to wear the watch, and the last 1/4 will waste your time.

It never hurts to consider what may be causing the issue before attempting to solve it. I'm not sure of the 382 bezel construction, but I see PAM bezel construction threads talking about nylon rings, and some about metal friction rings. If there was a patina on the watch, which results from a chemical change of the metal on the exterior, I would say the cause is most likely a chemical change on the interior (interior of the bezel). While the citrus may have loosened up the surface debris, there is likely to be a good amount of accumulation under the bezel which the juice could not penetrate fully. It seems like the more likely scenario is that your watch has become locked up from tarnish as a result of forcing a patina. The other scenario, which seems unlikely to me, is that the nylon was warped. This could have happened by subjecting the watch to high heat (oven?) or strong acids (which would have eaten away at the metal, lemon juice would not have helped), so that seems unlikely.

If I were in your shoes, my first course of action would be to pop that bezel off, once you do that it'll be smooth sailing. Trust me, I have a boat. You could attempt to pry the bezel off with a case knife, but the slippage risk seems high here if you couldn't budge the bezel with your hands (all that pressure on the tip of a blade, one slip will likely gouge). Instead I would remove the case back, remove the stem, slide the movement out, and cover it from dust. Also remove the strap, CG, and crystal if you can. At this point you should basically just be dealing with a metal chunk, which you can now soak without worry. A simple solution would be to boil some water and toss the case in. The heat from the water will cause some thermal expansion in the metal. Subsequent cooling outside of the water will allow the metal to thermally contract. While the expansion and contraction is slight and will not exceed the build tolerances off the watch (i.e. It's functional integrity will be maintained), it will likely have been thorough enough movement to dislodge the bezel tarnish. While the lemon juice was a surface treatment, this will treat the entire inside and outside of the bezel.

If heating the watch didn't work, it's at least going to be pretty clean. At this point it would be advisable to move to penetrating oils. While you suggested WD40, I would suggest against.

While there are infinite discussions and articles on penetrating oils, I'll summarize the findings of an article that put together some numbers when removing stuck bolts. The results they logged were the torques required to loosen the bolts.

Nothing - 516 ft lbs
WD40 - 238 ft lbs
Kano Kroll - 106 ft lbs
50/50 ATF & Acetone - 50 ft lbs

(Source: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/best-penetrating-oil-for-stuck-nuts-bolts.773380/)

If you can apply 240 ft lbs with your bare hands, then you are a god among mere mortals.

According to NASA you've probably got about 10.125 ft lbs coming out of your hands. Also this isn't a rusted in bolt, but we do want to make this as easy as possible.

(Source: http://msis.jsc.nasa.gov/sections/section04.htm#Figure 4.9.3-8)

However, penetration (if consensual) can happen more than once. So I would first, test an inconspicuous part of the metal with a drop to make sure the finish and color are not affected. If that holds, then soak the case for a few hours, attempt, soak for a few hours, attempt, etc. The bonds should weaken with time, and the intermittent force of attempting will also help break weakened bonds.

Hope this helps, but if I'm wrong call it like it is.

P.S. I don't have a boat.
 

pure b

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Thanks a lot for your accurate write up!

I think I'm going tobpass on disassembling the watch as I don't have any experience with that and don't have the right tools to do this. ( Clear the dial and xtal from dust and grease afterwards, movement holder etc.)

I do hower are going to try the soaking in different substances, the watch is waterproof so this shouldnt be a problem
 

idinwo01

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I do hower are going to try the soaking in different substances, the watch is waterproof so this shouldnt be a problem

1. Stated as water proof does not guarantee actual water proof. I read a thread this morning about a member who is on his first week of wearing his new tudor BB from PureTime that was waterproofed and has already displayed a lot of condensation inside the crystal after a simple fishing trip. Not only was it not water proof, but it seems to have been very minimally water resistant to be so effected by such an incident.

2. In regards to No. 1, you may not have a water pressure setup. I don't, and I do work on watches (Its on the list). For the time being, I assume that with the proper treatment, I can simply improve my chances of successful water resistance. Each watch i get, I make sure to oil the less pressured gaskets; these include the gaskets around the crown and crown tube and the gasket for the back of the case. This treatment needs n watch experience. The tools required are: take, small screw driver, silicon grease. If you don't have a small screw driver, go to CVS and grab a cheap little eyeglasses kit, it'll do. Unscrew the CG with the screw driver, wad up the tape and unsure the case back (yes, its usually that easy), and then locate the small screw near the stem and unscrew it only until the stem comes free. As long as you don't spill coffee in the watch, sneeze a bunch of gunk into the case, each a bag of cheetos over the open movement, or cook a pound of bacon next to it, the risk here is extremely minimal. I don't think there is any risk actually. Just be seated and mindful when the watch is open and you won't have a problem. A spec of atmospheric dust is not going to ruin the integrity, however if you're still concerned, once you get the back open, place a cup over the open watch upside down (DIY movement cover). Now rub some silicon grease on the gaskets, put them back in to place, screw everything down, use a lot of tape to get a good grip and shut that case up. Now you know for a fact that the watch is sealed. Since the build of these watches are now quite precisely machined, i usually view any lack of water resistance due to a loose access point or a weak seal. You've just confirmed both are good to go.

3. No heat when you soak that watch, the thermal expansion may compromise the seal and allow water in. (Hmmm, would I be willing to take my rep into a hot tub? I'm not sure.)

4. "Different substances" are definitely not water. I can not say how "different substance" proof your watch is (inside and out). You should heavily consider solvent interactions and health precautions.
Example. Acetone has very good solvent properties. It will easily remove marker and paint. Expect the black to be removed from the bezel immediately and the integrity of the epoxy resin pearl to be in danger when soaking for period of an hour or longer. The paint would be extremely extremely easy to fix, you just toss in some hobby paint. Lots of threads about it on lots of forums. The pearl would be a bit trickier.

You could always put the watch in a bowl and carefully fill until the bezel is soaking, but not submerged. There should be a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for each oil, or at least some list of ingredients. If you want some advice on the effects of the ingredients, you could post here and I will give you some things to consider.

5. I am not trying to peer pressure you into breaking open that watch, but if you ultimately decide heat is the way to go, the materials you need to accomplish removing the stem and movement are:



  • Work space: any desk or table will do, just clear it and give it a little wipe down
  • Movement cover: just use an upside down clean glass
  • Screw driver: we are just removing the stem, no assortment needed, an eye glasses screwdriver will do ($3)
  • Smudge/speck cleaner: order a stick of rodeo, its only $5
  • Duster: Can duster or even a turkey baster (yes, real DIY here, should be like max $2)
  • Movement pad: DVD case will do
  • Parts container: a small bowl will do.
  • Total: about $10

Procedure:


  1. [*=2]Remove the two CG screws and remove the CG, place the three parts in the parts container.
    [*=2]Flip the watch face down.
    [*=2]Make a sticky tape ball (yes many members do this).
    [*=2]Use the ball to untwist the case back, and put the case back in the parts container.
    [*=2]Remove the crown by loosening the screw near the stem, and put crown in parts container.

    This is as far as you need to go to grease the gaskets. But a little further and the movement will be out.
    [*=2]If there are any movement tabs, remove them. They would be two tabs holding the movement to the case. Real easy to spot and real easy to remove. Place those in the parts bin.
    [*=2]Put the DVD case on top of the open watch and flip the DVD case and watch over. The movement, dial, and hands will all remain assembled and should be resting on the DVD case.
    [*=2]Toss the glass on top of the DVD case with movement and there you go. Case is on its own and the movement is protected from dust.

    Re-assembling the watch is just as simple.
    [*=2]Remove the glass.
    [*=2]Look at dial and case. If there are any specks, use the duster and then dab any specs with the Rodico.
    [*=2]Place the watch case on top of the movement that is resting on the DVD case.
    [*=2]Flip the DVD case and watch. Now the movement is back inside the watch.
    [*=2]Toss the crown back in (just rotate the movement gently using the screw driver until the stem lines up with the hole, no harm done by doing that. And tighten the screw holding in the stem.
    [*=2]Toss the movement tabs back on if there were any.
    [*=2]Screw the case back on.
    [*=2]Flip the watch over.
    [*=2]Screw the crown guard back in.

The reason I am going to such lengths of explaining this in such detail is in case you change your mind, or if the soaking does not work, as well as if any members encounter this problem in the future. While hand setting, date wheel overlays, and movement repairs are not something I would instruct so casually, you'd be surprised at how simple it is to safely remove and insert the innards of the watch to perform case mods.

Let me know of you have any questions :thumbup:
 

pure b

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I can't thank you enough for this mate, I might give it a try someday.

The previous owner had it pressure tested and had a couple of swims in the ocean with it (hence the verdegris underneath the bezel) so I am pretty sure it is waterproof till some degree.
 

pure b

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Thank god it's loose.



Soaked it in WD40 for about 15 minutes and then twisted it with a vice, covered in cloth off course
 

idinwo01

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Thank god it's loose.



Soaked it in WD40 for about 15 minutes and then twisted it with a vice, covered in cloth off course

Glad to hear the WD40 worked, will keep that in mind. Make sure to clean out the WD40 or the watch will collect a lot of grime and you'll have different issues.