Rolex gen custom bezels and dials

[Yacht-Monster]

Hi all,

My question is more related to those familiar with the Rolex gen game. A local reputable second hand swiss watch dealer has a 16610 blue sub in stainless steel in their shop. I mentioned to the salesperson that I thought the 16610 blue sub was in white gold only, not steel and they mentioned that this was a custom sub from those days.

Did this mean that Rolex would allow a 16610 to be purchased with a blue bezel and dial, or is this aftermarket pieces (as in not Rolex parts), or potentially a fraken of legit Rolex parts? I really like the look of a blue 16610 sub and it takes away the bloated expensive look of the Smurf (no offense Smurf fans). I intend on asking the staff there more if I plan on going ahead with purchasing it, just thought I'd ask here to avoid looking like a clown (no need to point out the irony of me looking like a clown here ).

Thanks

 

[KJ2020]

Bro AFAIK Rolex never made a 5 digit Sub in WG, or with a blue/silver insert, or with a blue/white dial.

If you look these combos up online, you always find that the dials are custom, often with diamonds. To legally make a custom dial a gen dial is supposed to be sourced then sandblasted and refurbished or customized etc. But in practice we can guess how often that is abused. So if it's done legally it can be accurately claimed to be a gen dial, just not necessarily in the appearance it was made originally or finished by Rolex.

Inserts are also custom made, but IDK of any requirement (or allowance) to use a gen source since there are no logos or trademarks on them like a dial has. Pearls are an easy way to tell a fake insert but so would new blue and silver paint be. A gen blue and gold 16613 or 16618 insert can fade to look blue and silver(ish) so it's possible for that combo to exist in gen.

For cases, jewelers can polish SS to look like WG by removing all the lug brushing. Also they can polish bracelet center links and link edges to make everything look like a WG 116619 Smurf. This is easily done, I've done it on some reps.

The site below shows all the commonly produced 5 and 6 digit Subs. There are always going to be some one off custom or diamond actual Rolex examples but these sell at auctions not at a local jewelry and watch shop. I've read a story or two about Rolex making unique pieces for special people but these are rare exceptions.

Rolex Submariner watches » WatchBase

All Rolex Submariner watches on WatchBase.com

watchbase.com

Some examples of 5 digit "smurfs"

16610 submariner blue dial at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Rolex is quite strict about counterfeit parts when they want to be. According to them, if ANY part of the watch is not genuine, the WATCH is counterfeit. This gives them the legal right to prosecute a counterfeit sale if they choose to. In practice they don't seem bothered much by minor customizations like these.

 

[Yacht-Monster]

Bro AFAIK Rolex never made a 5 digit Sub in WG, or with a blue/silver insert, or with a blue/white dial.

If you look these combos up online, you always find that the dials are custom, often with diamonds. To legally make a custom dial a gen dial is supposed to be sourced then sandblasted and refurbished or customized etc. But in practice we can guess how often that is abused. So if it's done legally it can be accurately claimed to be a gen dial, just not necessarily in the appearance it was made originally or finished by Rolex.

Inserts are also custom made, but IDK of any requirement to use a gen source since there are no logos or trademarks on them like a dial has. Pearls are an easy way to tell a fake insert but so would new blue and silver paint be. A gen blue and gold 16613 or 16618 insert can fade to look blue and silver(ish) so it's possible for that combo to exist in gen.

For cases. jewelers can polish SS to look like WG. removing all the lug brushing. Also they can polish bracelet center links and link edges to make everything look like a WG 116619 Smurf. This is easily done, I've done it on some reps.

The site below shows all the commonly produced 5 and 6 digit Subs. There are always going to be some one off custom or diamond actual Rolex examples but these sell at auctions not at a local jewelry and watch shop. I've read a story or two about Rolex making unique pieces for special people but these are rare exceptions.

Rolex Submariner watches » WatchBase

All Rolex Submariner watches on WatchBase.com

watchbase.com

Some examples of 5 digit "smurfs"

16610 submariner blue dial at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Rolex is quite strict about counterfeit parts when they want to be. According to them, if ANY part of the watch is not genuine, the WATCH is counterfeit. This gives them the legal right to prosecute a counterfeit sale if they choose to. In practice they don't seem bothered much by minor customizations like these.

Thanks for such a detailed and informative reply yet again @KJ2020 this is great information.

 

[White_Rose]

Pearls are an easy way to tell

What's the biggest/easiest tell ?

 

[CarpetRyd]

@KJ2020 dropping some good knowledge as usual.

I’m going to add on a little bit from my experience with the inserts. There are two gen options:

1. Older 16613LB (bluesy) inserts had an issue where the gold flake on the numbers would fade over time to the underlying silver. If you have a true bluesy that might be unfavorable to you, so you get it replaced. These are the most common inserts to swap into a 16610LN/LV. The tell here is the yellow gold around the pearl. That bit doesn’t fade away!
   
   
2. The more rare/uncommon version is from the older late 80’s/90’s 16808/16613 serti dials. They actually had a white gold surround and silver markers. It’s such a small detail that is easily missed by most. They pop up from time to time on the bay and trf (for a ridiculous $$$).

I was lucky enough to find one a few years back for a decent price and had to add it to the collection. Here’s a picture of both:



Do you have pictures of the sub you’re looking at? Most likely someone swapped in an older 16613LB insert with yellow gold surround and are calling it custom.

 

[Yacht-Monster]

@KJ2020 dropping some good knowledge as usual.

I’m going to add on a little bit from my experience with the inserts. There are two gen options:

1. Older 16613LB (bluesy) inserts had an issue where the gold flake on the numbers would fade over time to the underlying silver. If you have a true bluesy that might be unfavorable to you, so you get it replaced. These are the most common inserts to swap into a 16610LN/LV. The tell here is the yellow gold around the pearl. That bit doesn’t fade away!
   
   
2. The more rare/uncommon version is from the older late 80’s/90’s 16808/16613 serti dials. They actually had a white gold surround and silver markers. It’s such a small detail that is easily missed by most. They pop up from time to time on the bay and trf (for a ridiculous $$$).

I was lucky enough to find one a few years back for a decent price and had to add it to the collection. Here’s a picture of both:



Do you have pictures of the sub you’re looking at? Most likely someone swapped in an older 16613LB insert with yellow gold surround and are calling it custom.

Thanks so much for this information. The retail sale I was looking at is here https://www.aandewatches.com/rolex-...iner-blue-dial-blue-bezel-insert-subss02.html

I'm assuming it's a sand blasted version as the blue is quite light.

Thanks again.

 

[KJ2020]

@KJ2020 dropping some good knowledge as usual.

I’m going to add on a little bit from my experience with the inserts. There are two gen options:

1. Older 16613LB (bluesy) inserts had an issue where the gold flake on the numbers would fade over time to the underlying silver. If you have a true bluesy that might be unfavorable to you, so you get it replaced. These are the most common inserts to swap into a 16610LN/LV. The tell here is the yellow gold around the pearl. That bit doesn’t fade away!
   
   
2. The more rare/uncommon version is from the older late 80’s/90’s 16808/16613 serti dials. They actually had a white gold surround and silver markers. It’s such a small detail that is easily missed by most. They pop up from time to time on the bay and trf (for a ridiculous $$$).

I was lucky enough to find one a few years back for a decent price and had to add it to the collection. Here’s a picture of both:



Do you have pictures of the sub you’re looking at? Most likely someone swapped in an older 16613LB insert with yellow gold surround and are calling it custom.

Interesting bro, thanks for the addition. What a nice piece of niche history you acquired. Great looking pieces! I should find a blue/white 5 digit dial for one of mine. BP might still make one.

 

[CarpetRyd]

Thanks so much for this information. The retail sale I was looking at is here https://www.aandewatches.com/rolex-...iner-blue-dial-blue-bezel-insert-subss02.html

I'm assuming it's a sand blasted version as the blue is quite light.

Thanks again.

It’s a cool looking watch, but you could save yourself some money and build a rep better and for significantly less. Seems like a lot of aftermarket:

1. Dial
2. Handset
3. Datewheel
4. Bezel insert
5. Crown/tube (maybe) - pretty big gap for genuine

If that’s all aftermarket, what’s actually orignal would be my question…

 

[KJ2020]

Thanks so much for this information. The retail sale I was looking at is here https://www.aandewatches.com/rolex-...iner-blue-dial-blue-bezel-insert-subss02.html

I'm assuming it's a sand blasted version as the blue is quite light.

Thanks again.

Hmm, those hands do not look gen. The hour and minute hand lume plots are too big, and the second hand is too short on both ends.

Compare to this collage of 4 different random gens.

The date wheel does not look gen either. If it's really a 16610, it should have one of three 3135 datewheels. There are some different fonts and one with open 6 / 9 but none look like the "Smurf". That datewheel is bold and has a very slightly open 6

 

[Yacht-Monster]

Thanks the the efforts @CarpetRyd and @KJ2020

I'm starting to lean towards a build. Unless something similar poped up with recent Rolex service history, then I'm nervous about 'aftermarket' parts (that's technically what we get from TDs).

Once again, I really appreciate the help and the wealth of information you both provided.

 

[KJ2020]

Thanks the the efforts @CarpetRyd and @KJ2020

I'm starting to lean towards a build. Unless something similar poped up with recent Rolex service history, then I'm nervous about 'aftermarket' parts (that's technically what we get from TDs).

Once again, I really appreciate the help and the wealth of information you both provided.

ROLSUB107A - 16610 Blue SS Sub Asian 2824/3135 [ROLSUB107A] - $278.00 : Trusty Time Watch, Your Trusty Watch Shop

Trusty Time Watch ROLSUB107A - 16610 Blue SS Sub Asian 2824/3135 [ROLSUB107A] - The 16610 Classic Steel Submariner!!! Ultimate Supreme Version!!! Superlume!!! The Most Accurate Classic Submariner Made to Date... M Serial Numbers... Glass Clad over Pearl as per the Genuine.... This is made with...

trustytimewatch88.io

Unfortunately the date window is in the ETA position.

 

[Yacht-Monster]

ROLSUB107A - 16610 Blue SS Sub Asian 2824/3135 [ROLSUB107A] - $278.00 : Trusty Time Watch, Your Trusty Watch Shop

Trusty Time Watch ROLSUB107A - 16610 Blue SS Sub Asian 2824/3135 [ROLSUB107A] - The 16610 Classic Steel Submariner!!! Ultimate Supreme Version!!! Superlume!!! The Most Accurate Classic Submariner Made to Date... M Serial Numbers... Glass Clad over Pearl as per the Genuine.... This is made with...

trustytimewatch88.io

Unfortunately the date window is in the ETA position.

I'm thinking this version but swap the SA3135 for a VR3135, add gen date wheel, green hands and replace the crystal might be the perfect mod. @KJ2020 would the VR3135 need mods to take this dial?

Thanks again.

ROLSUB0208 - Submariner Ref.16610 SS/SS Blue BPF A3135 Mod [ROLSUB0208] - $308.00 : Trusty Time Watch, Your Trusty Watch Shop

Trusty Time Watch ROLSUB0208 - Submariner Ref.16610 SS/SS Blue BPF A3135 Mod [ROLSUB0208] - BP Factory Rolex Ref.16610 Submariner Blue in Asia Clone 3135 MOVEMENT: Nickel Plated Asia Clone 3135 Automatic Movement, 25J, 28800bph with fully decorated bridges/plates & rotor CASE DIAMETER: 40mm...

trustytimewatch88.io

 

[alligoat]

I would think that the A&E watch is a gen movement, case and bracelet. Date wheel could be an old early 16610 one. I don't see the DW being in the eta position- way too fake for me. But yes, the dial and bezel insert are aftermarket. Not sure about the crown not being screwed down properly.
I wouldn't touch a watch like this unless I could buy it at a steep discount. And no,you can't take it to Rolex!
A good question would be to ask the seller what the SN is- R, L, and E SNs might have an open 6/9 DW, possibly also an x serial.
Buying the Trusty BPF bluesy would be good if you swap in the VR/VS3135,but remember the bezel assembly isn't gen like. Still you'd have a nice watch for not too much money. For a little more money you could buy the RAF 16610 and swap in the parts from the BPF sub- oh wait,the blue bezel insert might not fit- BP inserts might be slightly smaller. But you could probably find an aftermarket insert that would fit.

 

[Yacht-Monster]

I would think that the A&E watch is a gen movement, case and bracelet. Date wheel could be an old early 16610 one. I don't see the DW being in the eta position- way too fake for me. But yes, the dial and bezel insert are aftermarket. Not sure about the crown not being screwed down properly.
I wouldn't touch a watch like this unless I could buy it at a steep discount. And no,you can't take it to Rolex!
A good question would be to ask the seller what the SN is- R, L, and E SNs might have an open 6/9 DW, possibly also an x serial.
Buying the Trusty BPF bluesy would be good if you swap in the VR/VS3135,but remember the bezel assembly isn't gen like. Still you'd have a nice watch for not too much money. For a little more money you could buy the RAF 16610 and swap in the parts from the BPF sub- oh wait,the blue bezel insert might not fit- BP inserts might be slightly smaller. But you could probably find an aftermarket insert that would fit.

Thanks for that and that's a good idea regarding the RAF/BPF hybrid. I tink @KJ2020 was referring to the ETA based sub replica he initially recommended when he referred to the date wheel. Nonetheless, maybe the RAF with the dial from the BPF, an aftermarket bezel, plus swapping the movement could be the ultimate budget build.

Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[KJ2020]

It's the blue dial from BP that has a date window in the ETA position. So it is usable only if one accepts that glaring deviation from gen-spec.

Unfortunately although this model listing contains 3135 in the description, it is only offered as a 2824 with fake 3135 engravings.

You can put a 3135 in a 2824 case - I've done it several times. But then this dial won't work because of the date window position.

The A & E custom Smurf has a datewheel in the correct 3135 Rolex position but which never existed in gen that I know of. I pictured the gen 3135 open 6 / 9 datewheel that would have been in a very early serial 16610. I've never seen a gen open datewheel with the space as narrow as that A & E datewheel has.

 

[alligoat]

My mistake, I had forgotten that the BP datewheel was in the eta position, so the BP isn't of much use. And it looks like Trusty's other blue sub suffers from the same condition- DWO in eta position.
ROLSUB107A - 16610 Blue SS Sub Asian 2824/3135. But for a cheap fix, I'd probably go for the ROLSUB107A, hoping that the 2824/3135 would be more reliable than the SA3135.
If you look around, maybe you could find a blue aftermarket dial. I'm thinking you might be able to pick one up for around $250-300.

This item is unavailable - Etsy

Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewelry, and more… lots more.

www.etsy.com

But this is the maxi dial, but maybe they could make you a 16610 dial- that and a RAF 16610 and then your down to finding an aftermarket blue insert

 

[KJ2020]

@

My mistake, I had forgotten that the BP datewheel was in the eta position, so the BP isn't of much use. And it looks like Trusty's other blue sub suffers from the same condition- DWO in eta position.
ROLSUB107A - 16610 Blue SS Sub Asian 2824/3135. But for a cheap fix, I'd probably go for the ROLSUB107A, hoping that the 2824/3135 would be more reliable than the SA3135.
If you look around, maybe you could find a blue aftermarket dial. I'm thinking you might be able to pick one up for around $250-300.

This item is unavailable - Etsy

Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewelry, and more… lots more.

www.etsy.com

But this is the maxi dial, but maybe they could make you a 16610 dial- that and a RAF 16610 and then your down to finding an aftermarket blue insert

@Roughwatch

ROLSUB0208 - Submariner Ref.16610 SS/SS Blue BPF A3135 Mod [ROLSUB0208] - $308.00 : Trusty Time Watch, Your Trusty Watch Shop

Trusty Time Watch ROLSUB0208 - Submariner Ref.16610 SS/SS Blue BPF A3135 Mod [ROLSUB0208] - BP Factory Rolex Ref.16610 Submariner Blue in Asia Clone 3135 MOVEMENT: Nickel Plated Asia Clone 3135 Automatic Movement, 25J, 28800bph with fully decorated bridges/plates & rotor CASE DIAMETER: 40mm...

trustytimewatch88.io

Wait a minute here guys, I didn't see that other BP version before. This is a true 3135 model, dial and all. I have several of these (black, green, shark, serti, no date) and while the inserts are a tad narrow (37.45 OD vs ~37.65 gen), they are quite acceptable overall to a lot of folks. BP pearls are unequalled in the rep game. Also BP hands are very good. That A & E modder should have used a set, hah!

Yes the chamfers are a little fat and the SA movements suck but I still have one that the SA has run flawlessly in for going on a year now. You can get a first generation VR3135 (no fake free sprung balance arm) for about $70 now on Ali Express. I just bought about 4 of them for reserves.

This is quite a nice looking piece IMO, the dial is prettier if the pics are true. Swap in a VR and add it to the collection.

No way an actual 3135 can have an ETA date window.

If these are still available it's a no brainer!

And of course you could buy a RAF too and swap the dials around, aftermarket gen-spec blue inserts are easy to find. Sell the BP as a shark if you wanted. Both should have new VR movements but all that is easy and negotiable.

 

[Yacht-Monster]

Thanks again guys. Yes, that SA3135 BP is available as my brother just bought one in black and all versions were available. My brother is using the black one un-modded but I'd like to possible avoid the costly RAF and mod this BP with a VR3135, gen date wheel, insert and crystal. The RAF looks great, but just for the case it's a large amount, especially for a custom watch which is likely to stand out anyway.

Thanks again to both @KJ2020 and @alligoat for the great contributions.

 

[KJ2020]

Thanks again guys. Yes, that SA3135 BP is available as my brother just bought one in black and all versions were available. My brother is using the black one un-modded but I'd like to possible avoid the costly RAF and mod this BP with a VR3135, gen date wheel, insert and crystal. The RAF looks great, but just for the case it's a large amount, especially for a custom watch which is likely to stand out anyway.

Thanks again to both @KJ2020 and @alligoat for the great contributions.

No 5 digit BP Sub or GMT will take a gen-spec insert unless you shave the OD of the insert or the ID of the bezel rim. I've done both - shaving the insert is a lot easier but that's not always desirable if the insert is gen or feasible if the numbers are close to the outer edge.

Shaving the bezel is a royal PITA unless done with a lathe, and can look a little ragged if not done carefully. Also there's precious little material that can be removed before you eat into the scallops.

I shaved a Startime bezel to fit a gen insert for the new Ebay 16710 case. It really needed a narrower rim anyway.

ST on top of my gen

 

[alligoat]

Nice find on the ROLSUB0208 KJ! Now you've got me thinking that I need one-UGH!