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Replication of Panerai Composite

czwatchshop

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28/10/12
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Hello everybody,
I fell in love with recently shown Pam Composite models (mainly fantasy watches as 375 and 386).

So i made small research over the internet and as Panerai states it is made by chemical metalurgy process on base material wich is aluminium, I can not stop thinking about trying to find how is it done.

As they stated it is well known process used in aerospace and automotive. I´m not metalurgy expert, but i have graduated on technical university, and imho It is simply anodized aluminium with nanocomposite layer. (and maybe dyed in final step, according to some un-official informations, because of green color after finishing "ceramization").

Yes they call it "ceramization" but this process is also known as nanocomposite anodized aluminium coating, or simply cermat. If you try to google theese terms, you will find many interested articles...

I have also found some companies (US Based) wich can offer nanocomposite aluminium coating.

I know we will probably never have exact copy of this composite, because of many factors involved into process (such as temperature, DC voltage while anodizing, times and chemicals etc..) but i still wonder if there is possibility to try to replicate similar process.

Anodization of aluminium is very simple process, you can even make it at home :) (as you can find on youtube), but main questin is how are they depositing ceramic layer. I have found few articles about this topic, and it seems there are two ways. First is chemical additives in anodizing bath (wich seems to be right one, because they say its chemical process) or well known PVD (deponing from solid state).

I know its simply not possible to exactly replicate this process, but imagine that you can have Al case with nanocomposite ceramic layer dyed into dark brown color...

What you think guys? :)
 

trailboss99

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You are probably correct, I doubt it is a PVD or a flame spray process as the coating is reasonably thick. Certainly thicker than PVD. There is an article on this somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.
 

czwatchshop

Getting To Know The Place
28/10/12
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Its nice to see somebody interested in same topic :)

Im 100% sure it is not so special process as they say in they "highly sophisticated" marketing words :D


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ALE7575

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I'm very used to apply anodization process to aluminum, because I have worked many years (many years ago) making aluminum anodized parts for automotive and "white goods" industry, even in aluminum structural works for buildings.
Usual anodization is a very hard but extremely thin layer of aluminum oxide that can be easily scratched (better said broken) by a hard object and you get easily the aluminum body.
I can say that Composite is something completely different to the usual anodization in industry.
I am not saying that the process of ceramization is different to anodization, because the main process is indeed very similar, but the real thing is much more complicated and expensive.
As said by trailboss, "composite layer" is much thicker. Composite surface has different appearance than usual anodization. Surface final appearance depends a lot too on the pre-treatment of the part. In Paneari case the beadblasted or sandblasted.
This is a electrolytic process completely different to PVD-DLC, with thicker but similar appearance results

That said, knowing perfectly the usual anodization process, I always thought that "composite" material was a "sophisticated anodization", with ceramization involved and getting great thickness.
Most likely there are companies able to apply these treatments and to get the finish and colour is a matter of some appropriate regulations.

I don't know why replica makers are not trying this way. Maybe this process is not available in China (?)
We know they are trying with PVD-DLCd aluminum (seemingly without complete success: PAM 386 V2) and now there are makers working in DLCd Titanium to get similar weight to composite. But never trying to get the ceramization by anodization process.

Therefore, very interesting topic from OP and we are open to makers an dealers opinions.
I will try to investigate more about this matter
Thanks for starting this discussion

ALE
 

czwatchshop

Getting To Know The Place
28/10/12
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Thanks Ale, very interested post. Thats what im trying to say - there are companies offering similar treatment and i think there is lot of companies in China of this kind...

I think there is a lot of marketing under the great trademarked word Panerai Composite. Because you can say every material made of an alloy and another material is composit...

We cant say how thick is this "magical layer" of ceramic (or ceramized alu), it can be few microns..


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Storch

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I have not looked into the panerai material.
Please forgive me as it's been a long time since a metallurgy class, but my guess would be it is alumina coated aluminum powder (basically oxidize aluminum powder) that is hot isostatically pressed into shape and sintered to form the case.
If anyone could point me to some official description I could confirm that.
 

czwatchshop

Getting To Know The Place
28/10/12
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I have not looked into the panerai material.
Please forgive me as it's been a long time since a metallurgy class, but my guess would be it is alumina coated aluminum powder (basically oxidize aluminum powder) that is hot isostatically pressed into shape and sintered to form the case.
If anyone could point me to some official description I could confirm that.

That should be the only way how to change the entair volume of case material.

Maybe buying original Radiomir crown, cutting it in half and analyze of material will be the only way how to get know the composition :)
 

ALE7575

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That should be the only way how to change the entair volume of case material.

Maybe buying original Radiomir crown, cutting it in half and analyze of material will be the only way how to get know the composition :)

Better with a Panerai gen case.
Go ahead !!!

LOL

ALE
 

czwatchshop

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28/10/12
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Got it :), i found this on risti´s thread.

"broken crown cap that is made of "zirconia" composite"

P3011220.jpg

P3011223.jpg
 

ALE7575

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This breaking shape is not own of a metallic body part !!

An aluminum coated item (even with very thick coating) doesn't broke like that !!

ALE
 

czwatchshop

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Yes definetly this is not Alu.. So it must be anodized powder thermaly presssed (casted) to its shape as mentioned.
It seems this happening manytimes on compo models, this guy sayd its third crown broken on his rad.
So it can be very easy to obtain few gen crowns as samples.
Anybody interested? Maybe somebody have access to some laboratory to analyze it?


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ALE7575

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Could be the Crowns made of CERAMIC, and case made of COMPOSITE?

ALE
 

czwatchshop

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Could be the Crowns made of CERAMIC, and case made of COMPOSITE?

ALE

I dont think so, because they are reporting this issue only on new Composite Radiomir models. Ceramic models seems to be OK in this case.