Questions on Franken watches

[TickTockTommy]

Hi Guys,

I have a couple of questions regarding Franken watches:

1. I couldn't find something like a beginner guide on Franken watches. Is there something available? Would be super nice if you could push me in the right direction.
2. How good is the experience in having Franken watches being services at indepent watch makers? Before contacting watchmakers in my region prior to purchasing a franken watch, I would like to benefit from your experience. If I decide to go for a Franken watch, I would like to make sure that I would be able to have this time peace being serviced so that I could enjoy it for a long time.
3. Is there something like a best practice / list of importance (in general or certain watches) regarding the most important modifications? If you can push me in the right direction, that would be helpful.

Thanks a lot in advance.

 

[discosnrodeos]

ditto! i would like to know as well

 

[Rx4Time]

Franken watches can get expensive quickly. Most of your replicas nowadays are so good out of the box that the improvement is minimal, and the incremental improvements is not really worth the expenditure in most cases since the genuine parts are so expensive. Is there a specific model you're looking at? At the end of the day it is still a replica with the clone movement unless you exchange in a genuine movement. So same caveats apply as far as finding a watchsmith locally, some will work on them and some won't. There isn't really a guide, so your best bet is to research the specific model you're looking at and see the discussions people have on the flaws and if it's worthwhile for a genuine part upgrade.

 

[pompompurin]

I have a couple of questions regarding Franken watches:

1. I couldn't find something like a beginner guide on Franken watches. Is there something available? Would be super nice if you could push me in the right direction.
2. How good is the experience in having Franken watches being services at indepent watch makers? Before contacting watchmakers in my region prior to purchasing a franken watch, I would like to benefit from your experience. If I decide to go for a Franken watch, I would like to make sure that I would be able to have this time peace being serviced so that I could enjoy it for a long time.
3. Is there something like a best practice / list of importance (in general or certain watches) regarding the most important modifications? If you can push me in the right direction, that would be helpful.

Hi there,

1. I don't think a beginner guide exists here. But in a nutshell, i think a franken replica watch is a replica watch made with genuine and replica/aftermarket parts. There are also franken genuine watches which are genuine watches combined with non-factory-specification genuine parts.

2. I think it depends on the watchmaker's tolerance and experience. Some watchmakers are experienced with replica-specific knowledge (e.g., DWO installation, ICHS movement repair, faux sub dial, etc). Some watchmakers can deny working on replica watches (e.g., in case they break easily or they might be unfamiliar with replica movements). Ideally, if your replica watch uses ETA-based movements like 2824-2, 2892, 2836-2, etc., then watchmakers should be familiar with them and therefore more accepting. If your replica watch uses some custom movement that has no spare parts, then the reparability would be lower.

3. For any frankens that i build, it must have a genuine dial in it. But that's just my personal preference

 

[Got20Mate]

Dial for me is an absolute must to really be justified as a proper Franken, but that's just me. I'm not there are any hard and fast rules as such, but a lot of the really top end Frankens have a gen dial as the absolute starting point of the project. Case being reworked is when you start going up the levels!

 

[Hesekiel]

Simplified, think of a Frankenwatch as a $550 replica, where someone added a few thousands dollars in GEN parts, to make it "more" look like a $15K GEN.

So $550 replica, $1,500 to $8,500 Frankenwatch, or $15,000 GEN, again, simplified.

In my opinion, the Frankenwatch game is a losing proposition. Even a $8,500 fake remains a fake. I'd rather invest in a few super nice replicas and put the money I save on making it more expensive under my pillow.

There's one exception to this, and that's the movement. If one has a replica watch with a replica movement, replacing this with a genuine ETA or Sellita or Miyota once problems arise often makes sense, purely from a reliability standpoint.

 

[TESLA760]

Franken watches can get expensive quickly. Most of your replicas nowadays are so good out of the box that the improvement is minimal, and the incremental improvements is not really worth the expenditure in most cases since the genuine parts are so expensive. Is there a specific model you're looking at? At the end of the day it is still a replica with the clone movement unless you exchange in a genuine movement. So same caveats apply as far as finding a watchsmith locally, some will work on them and some won't. There isn't really a guide, so your best bet is to research the specific model you're looking at and see the discussions people have on the flaws and if it's worthwhile for a genuine part upgrade.

This ^^^

As was mentioned, a Franken watch is a depreciating asset. You'll never get back what you dump into it. Frankly, I've given up on Frankens since the current level of reps is so good.

 

[TickTockTommy]

Franken watches can get expensive quickly. Most of your replicas nowadays are so good out of the box that the improvement is minimal, and the incremental improvements is not really worth the expenditure in most cases since the genuine parts are so expensive. Is there a specific model you're looking at? At the end of the day it is still a replica with the clone movement unless you exchange in a genuine movement. So same caveats apply as far as finding a watchsmith locally, some will work on them and some won't. There isn't really a guide, so your best bet is to research the specific model you're looking at and see the discussions people have on the flaws and if it's worthwhile for a genuine part upgrade.

Thank you very much for you answer. I think it is very helpful that you point out that the incremental value is decreasing significantly for every additional EUR spent. Maybe I can share a bit of my current ratio:
1. I am not super experienced of how good Reps really are - I just ordered my first Rep (IWC Portuguese) of which I also the gen version. So that I am able to compare - even though not the exact same model but close. For this reason I have chosen a model seen as NWBIG according to Consensual List.

 

[TickTockTommy]

Franken watches can get expensive quickly. Most of your replicas nowadays are so good out of the box that the improvement is minimal, and the incremental improvements is not really worth the expenditure in most cases since the genuine parts are so expensive. Is there a specific model you're looking at? At the end of the day it is still a replica with the clone movement unless you exchange in a genuine movement. So same caveats apply as far as finding a watchsmith locally, some will work on them and some won't. There isn't really a guide, so your best bet is to research the specific model you're looking at and see the discussions people have on the flaws and if it's worthwhile for a genuine part upgrade.

Thank you very much for your answer. I find it very helpful that you point out the incremental value decreases significantly with every additional Euro spent.

Maybe I can share a bit about my current situation:

1. I am not very experienced with how good replicas really are. I just ordered my first replica (IWC Portuguese), of which I also own the genuine version. This allows me to compare them – even though they are not exactly the same model, they are close. For this reason, I have chosen a model that is seen as NWBIG according to the Consensual List.
2. I love the design and feel of nice watches, but I am not strongly emotionally attached to them in terms of higher symbolic value – I just enjoy them. Thus, I am not willing to pay full prices for certain gens like Rolex (personal opionen). Other Gens like Apollo 8 from Omega are potential buy as Gen. I also do not care much about the status a watch might provide – people in my close environment do not care much about watches (missing opportunity), and if I want to use a luxury watch as a status tool, I can always use one of my gens. These social occasions due happen in my work environment.
3. However, I definitely do not want to walk around – go to a restaurant / on holidays / on a bbq with friends, for instance – wearing a Hulk Rolex rep that can be spotted as fake by the naked eye. That would make me really uncomfortable, and I would not want to do it. Thus, I would like to reduce this risk to almost zero. Situations where I hand my watch over to someone to have a closer look do not arise, so it is really just about wearing the watch on my wrist and I want to do it without the fear of being exposed.
4. With brands like IWC, Tudor, Tag Heuer, and Tissot (my current gens), I assume that if I buy a rep, no one would notice or care as these watches are too rare or uninteresting anyway.
5. Take the Rolex Hulk Sub, for example, which I quite like. I would rather spend 2.5k on a 99.5% perfect watch versus 0.6k on a 95% perfect watch. So I am willing to accept the decreasing incremental value.
6. While I enjoy reading and studying the forums about the best options for certain watches, I do not think that I will realistically be able to judge what might be fake and what might be genuine (especially if I do not have a gen of this model myself).
   

That being said, I think a Franken watch might be a good idea for me, but I lack experience. I.e. I think this watch here is very interesting for a Hulk, even though I am not willing to spend 7k on such a watch, but as an extreme example. Especially with a Rolex (which naturally draws more attention), I really want to make sure that I am in a safe zone, and I think a gen bezel, dial, hands, crown, and crystal would do the trick. I find some Rolex watches quite attractive but I would not be willing to pay gen prices for those watches. For a model where a gen would be around 20k, I might be willing to spend 4-5k if I can ensure that I can enjoy the watch (wearing it without fear of being exposed) and if it can be serviced somewhere. I believe that after a couple of years, I could sell such a watch with normal depreciation that can be expected. Also I would only wear reps where I think it would be reasonable for me buying a gen as well if you know what I mean.

Simplified, think of a Frankenwatch as a $550 replica, where someone added a few thousands dollars in GEN parts, to make it "more" look like a $15K GEN.

So $550 replica, $1,500 to $8,500 Frankenwatch, or $15,000 GEN, again, simplified.

In my opinion, the Frankenwatch game is a losing proposition. Even a $8,500 fake remains a fake. I'd rather invest in a few super nice replicas and put the money I save on making it more expensive under my pillow.

There's one exception to this, and that's the movement. If one has a replica watch with a replica movement, replacing this with a genuine ETA or Sellita or Miyota once problems arise often makes sense, purely from a reliability standpoint.

Thank you very much fot taking the time answering to this thread. Taking your example for granted, I would potentially be willing to rather spend 2k on almost perfect clone (99.5%) of a 15k Gen (assuming used ones are not available for half the price) vs. 550 on a 97% watch.

 

[Hesekiel]

Given your situation, if you buy a VS or Clean (the last F is always "Factory) Hulk, nobody will be able to tell, unless they are a marque expert, inspecting the watch under a magnifying glass. If you really wanted to throw money at it, you could buy a GEN dial, but I would advise against that.

 

[Got20Mate]

Reminds me of a review on YouTube where they were comparing a gen panda to the Clean factory offering, just remarkable

This ^^^

As was mentioned, a Franken watch is a depreciating asset. You'll never get back what you dump into it. Frankly, I've given up on Frankens since the current level of reps is so good

 

[Gmt89]

A good way to get value is to get a gen Tudor. I recently got the BB 41 monochrome from an AD. I have also got a vsf hulk from Andrew at Trustytime, currently waiting for it.

This is exceptional value, considering superclones at around 500 usd. If you think about it，the amount u pay for a gen Tudor (5 years warranty) its like getting yourself a few clones every now and then but u have the absolute gen watch which performs on par or better than a Rolex given it's new metas certification.

The rest of the money, spend it on superclones of watches that are way above value. Like hulk/ daytonas. Or particularly any great production of a certain model.

Truth is, I own both Rolex and Tudors and different stage of my life. There are many scams out there. Even grey market dealers that builds their reputation by paying for reviews. I recently bought a Rolex batman 116710 blnr, bought it to a grey market dealer to have it authenticated as they seem to advertise themselves as having the state of the art equipments.

However, they swapped my genuine batman for a clone and they think I would walk out of there with the clone. I insisted on selling them after they verified my batman to be authentic. (How I know it's a clone because as a Rolex owner and a rep owner) U can tell instantly by looking and feeling the watch.

A good way to get your dream watch before pulling the trigger, go get the absolute clone the market have to offer at that point of time. Learn about the watch you are buying. All the tells. And you would be in a better position to safeguard yourself.

As of now, I am waiting on my vsf hulk and might move on to daytonas or any great production of any model. Hopefully the factories will come out with the Le Mans. A proper Le Mans. Clean / Vsf / Btf.

 

[Gmt89]

Reason I bought the vsf hulk. I might save up for a 116610 LN gen. I could swap the dial and bezel between both vsf hulk and gen 116610 LN. And I have 2 franken watches.

1 gen franken (LN -> LV) and 1 rep franken. (Gen LN dial and bezel on a vsf )

It can also leave me in the option custom of a gen 116610 LN with the vsk hulk dial.
(black bezel with green dial)

And swap the gen LN dial into the vsf hulk with green bezel (this becomes the STARBUCKS)

 

[Got20Mate]

A good way to get value is to get a gen Tudor. I recently got the BB 41 monochrome from an AD. I have also got a vsf hulk from Andrew at Trustytime, currently waiting for it.

This is exceptional value, considering superclones at around 500 usd. If you think about it，the amount u pay for a gen Tudor (5 years warranty) its like getting yourself a few clones every now and then but u have the absolute gen watch which performs on par or better than a Rolex given it's new metas certification.

The rest of the money, spend it on superclones of watches that are way above value. Like hulk/ daytonas. Or particularly any great production of a certain model.

Truth is, I own both Rolex and Tudors and different stage of my life. There are many scams out there. Even grey market dealers that builds their reputation by paying for reviews. I recently bought a Rolex batman 116710 blnr, bought it to a grey market dealer to have it authenticated as they seem to advertise themselves as having the state of the art equipments.

However, they swapped my genuine batman for a clone and they think I would walk out of there with the clone. I insisted on selling them after they verified my batman to be authentic. (How I know it's a clone because as a Rolex owner and a rep owner) U can tell instantly by looking and feeling the watch.

A good way to get your dream watch before pulling the trigger, go get the absolute clone the market have to offer at that point of time. Learn about the watch you are buying. All the tells. And you would be in a better position to safeguard yourself.

As of now, I am waiting on my vsf hulk and might move on to daytonas or any great production of any model. Hopefully the factories will come out with the Le Mans. A proper Le Mans. Clean / Vsf / Btf.

I like the idea of learning the "tells" by having the best rep on the market - Interesting approach that doesn't break the bank. The level of reps that I've seen these days just makes me so incredibly paranoid when buy gen.

 

[Gmt89]

I like the idea of learning the "tells" by having the best rep on the market - Interesting approach that doesn't break the bank. The level of reps that I've seen these days just makes me so incredibly paranoid when buy gen.

Truth is, you can tell both Gen and Rep by owning both of them.

1. Always buy gen from a reputable dealer. (With years of history) Not some new shop that have been around for a few years with lots of positive reviews. (This can be faked and bought)

Real reputable shops do not need to pull off this kind of stunts like Google reviews and such. Even so, bring to rsc straight to have it checked out, NVR a third party who will take your watch out of your sight. (This was what happened to my Rolex batman) I have no choice but to sell it or I walk out with a fake while they have taken my gen.

Then again, if it's about quality, just get a gen Tudor. Go to a AD and you will get the real deal.

Rolex have too much risk involved in it. Spending 10/20 grand and above only to find out years later that it have been tampered with. Or a franken. Is not worth it.

To be honest, a Tudor wears better than a Rolex. More sturdy. A Rolex is like a jewellery. Very shiny. And also depends on where you are in. Rolex is very subjected to variables as it is much more flashier than a Tudor.

My very first gen watch was a Rolex 16613LN back in the day. And I can tell u that any modern Tudor beats it hands down.

 

[Gmt89]

A good example is 116610LN vs 116610LV (Hulk).

Exact same watch with same specs.

1 is priced below 20k.

1 is slightly above 20k.

A difference in 6-7k for green dial.
Is it really worth it?

Unless the hulk was a special submariner edition with something different (eg. The Le Mans Daytona) special movement and open caseback.

If not, a 116610LN is good with aftermarket bezel/dial to get the hulk look.

Likewise, the datejust of the onyx/lapis dial is also one of my favs. I plan to just get an affordable datejust 36mm and just put in the aftermarket onyx dial. And you have the same effect as the original onyx dial. As they are stone dials. No one dial is the same.

 

[Got20Mate]

A good example is 116610LN vs 116610LV (Hulk).

Exact same watch with same specs.

1 is priced below 20k.

1 is slightly above 20k.

A difference in 6-7k for green dial.
Is it really worth it?

Unless the hulk was a special submariner edition with something different (eg. The Le Mans Daytona) special movement and open caseback.

If not, a 116610LN is good with aftermarket bezel/dial to get the hulk look.

Likewise, the datejust of the onyx/lapis dial is also one of my favs. I plan to just get an affordable datejust 36mm and just put in the aftermarket onyx dial. And you have the same effect as the original onyx dial. As they are stone dials. No one dial is the same.

Nice example on the hulk - Demand probably comes into in someway I suppose, but conceptually it's crazy!

 

[Art Vandelay]

My biggest enjoyment at the time from building an 11 series franken came from the part sourcing. The 'thrill of the chase' if you will.

Perhaps a bit controversial, but having spent a bit more time on here, looking back the build feels like a hollow victory. Essentially just throwing money at something to expediate the end outcome.

I do appreciate a franken build as much as the next forum member, but my personal epiphany moment came from delving into the old build threads written by high skilled and knowledgeable members / modders who created something that far exceeded the sum of the parts. To me that is the spirit of the forum and why I love being here.

Sure, my franken is that little bit closer to the gen I sold around the pandemic but under close inspection / in hand, some tells still remain. This is after a gen dial, hands, tube, crown, crystal etc.

Franken by all means if you're so inclined, but the differences will be negligible to the naked eye (especially when talking about modern subs). The high end reps are that good.

 

[TickTockTommy]

A good way to get value is to get a gen Tudor. I recently got the BB 41 monochrome from an AD. I have also got a vsf hulk from Andrew at Trustytime, currently waiting for it.

This is exceptional value, considering superclones at around 500 usd. If you think about it，the amount u pay for a gen Tudor (5 years warranty) its like getting yourself a few clones every now and then but u have the absolute gen watch which performs on par or better than a Rolex given it's new metas certification.

The rest of the money, spend it on superclones of watches that are way above value. Like hulk/ daytonas. Or particularly any great production of a certain model.

Ya, that's probably the way to go for me:
1. GEN from an AD for watches between 2-4k depending on the commitment. (so most mid rang watches like from TH over Tudor up to IWC).
2. Good Franken on watches that one really wants but price seems unreasonable (i.e. Hulk with GEN dial could be an option)
3. Super Reps for anything else (just for fun watches)
It will be very intesting to get my first NWBIG on the IWC of which I have the GEN as well to really get a feel of where it makes sense to get a GEN, Franken vs Superrep.
Thanks a lot for sharing your view, very helpful for my own opinion making.

 

[Rx4Time]

Ya, that's probably the way to go for me:
1. GEN from an AD for watches between 2-4k depending on the commitment. (so most mid rang watches like from TH over Tudor up to IWC).
2. Good Franken on watches that one really wants but price seems unreasonable (i.e. Hulk with GEN dial could be an option)
3. Super Reps for anything else (just for fun watches)
It will be very intesting to get my first NWBIG on the IWC of which I have the GEN as well to really get a feel of where it makes sense to get a GEN, Franken vs Superrep.
Thanks a lot for sharing your view, very helpful for my own opinion making.

For your edification. A couple of genuine/replica combinations I personally own (or used to own both and sold the replica on)


Panerai 237, gen on left....

Tudor black bay GMT, gen on right

Tudor Pelagos, gen on left

You buy superreps and nobody would be able to tell on the wrist. Even in hand unlikely unless they know what flaws to look for or have a genuine in hand to compare.