Questions - engravings filler and plexi insert color

[fan_pam]

Hello,

I have two upcoming projects that I will be doing, ref. 3646 (Radiomir and Kampfschwimmer). I know that there are several experts here on how to do things, so I would like to hear professional advice. I tried searching under tutorials section/thread about the topic but i could not find it.

So, here it goes.

What is the best filler for Radiomir (example) engravings?
I know about 2 options. White wax crayon (I found it on some other panerai homage forum). And another option is white paint and airbrush.
I heard from a lot of people that in old days Panerai did use a white oil-based wax for their dials.

Another question.
What is the best way to paint plexi insert to look orange, amber, or dark red? As of now, I only know about plastic dye. I am not sure about spraying the plexi thou.

(if I am not blind, I think, in picture below, this dial have insert plexi.) :nerd:

If you would like to share insights and other methods on both of my questions, I am all ears and I really appreciate your help.
I am only asking because I am new into this game of homage Panerai watches so I don't want to screw something up.

My reference and inspiration comes from this picture:


Thank you of your help.

 

[kilowattore]

Crayon filling gives good results imho, especially if you age it with some pigments.

There is no consensus about the plexi insert inside the dial.
tou most likely have a plastic insert with raised number and indices that go into the dial cutouts.

Currently the main theory now is that dials were made in a slightly different way. They were given a clear resin layer from the back that sealed the numbers and indices, then a plastic disc was filled with luminous paste and applied from the back. We came to this conclusion because producing a plastic insert with such glossy surface and perfect adherence to curves and angles is impossible even with the most modern technology available nowadays.

In any case you will have to apply paint from the back of the dial after placing the plastic insert or applying a resin layer in order to have red indices.

That's the theory, but dont ask me more technical.in depth, I always had someone work on my dials. If you dont get your answers here the right place is homage forum.

 

[fan_pam]

There is no consensus about the plexi insert inside the dial.
tou most likely have a plastic insert with raised number and indices that go into the dial cutouts.

This is what I was talking about. I have a 2 piece dial with this set up and I made it dark red.

I have an extra brass plate with dial feet to make this dial as a 3 piece. All I need to do is to apply luminous paste at the back of the plastic insert and make it thin. Dial height will be 2mm like in old days.

Genuine Dial:

Currently the main theory now is that dials were made in a slightly different way. They were given a clear resin layer from the back that sealed the numbers and indices, then a plastic disc was filled with luminous paste and applied from the back. We came to this conclusion because producing a plastic insert with such glossy surface and perfect adherence to curves and angles is impossible even with the most modern technology available nowadays.

Plastic insert with raised numbers and indices that go into the dial cutouts was used in 1940's, and then, in 1950's the dial set up was restructured with resin layer from the back, then plastic disc with luminous paste with brass plate with dial feet.
(Source: https://perezcope.com/2016/03/21/panerai-3646-type-c-on-chrono24/ under section "The Dial")

 

[kilowattore]

This is what I was talking about. I have a 2 piece dial with this set up and I made it dark red.

I have an extra brass plate with dial feet to make this dial as a 3 piece. All I need to do is to apply luminous paste at the back of the plastic insert and make it thin. Dial height will be 2mm like in old days.

Genuine Dial:

Plastic insert with raised numbers and indices that go into the dial cutouts was used in 1940's, and then, in 1950's the dial set up was restructured with resin layer from the back, then plastic disc with luminous paste with brass plate with dial feet.
(Source: https://perezcope.com/2016/03/21/panerai-3646-type-c-on-chrono24/ under section "The Dial")

You have got a nice result, congratulations.
I have read multiple times perezcope and other sources, as a matter of fact I've discussed this and other details with Jose before he shamelessly turned his back to the homage community in order to clear up his name. I'm no one to go against what Perez says, but I stand by my own opinion.

What would you say about this dial?

 

[fan_pam]

You have got a nice result, congratulations.
I have read multiple times perezcope and other sources, as a matter of fact I've discussed this and other details with Jose before he shamelessly turned his back to the homage community in order to clear up his name. I'm no one to go against what Perez says, but I stand by my own opinion.

What would you say about this dial?

So you know, I am no expert by any means on this, just my observation. If I am not correct, please let me know. I would like to educate myself what is correct information.

Here is the comparison between the dial you posted (left) and the genuine dial (right):

First of all, I think the Radiomir Panerai engravings are not genuine, because how the letters "R" are shaped.

Here is another example:

When it comes to plastic inlays, here is another comparison between the dial you posted and genuine dial next to each other:​

Picture of the dial you posted, can't 100% tell, because of the light condition, but as you can see from the above picture, I would "assume" its plexi inlay at No. 3. From this quality of the picture, it looks like inlay. But, the other observation at No. 2 it looks like resin applied. It looks like its not even with the dial like the genuine on the right. So I can't really say with 100% which one it is. If you have another picture of this dial straight on with normal light, You can tell if its resin applied or inlay.

I had 2mm RP dial at one point and resin was applied to it and it did not look like anything like the genuine dial with plexi inlay. So, thats what I am taking my observation from.

But other thing that makes me think these dials have inlays is there are gaps between inlays and the cutout of the dial. As you can see they are not 100% fitted to dial. Maybe they were 100% fitted (no gaps) in 1940s when it was installed into the watch, but they might deformed due to age (just a thought, I don't know). I am not sure if resin would do the same thing by aging.​

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[kilowattore]

I am sorry, I have no definitive answer for you. As I said this matter has been discussed extensively over at Homage Forum and it would be pointless to start it back from the very beginning.
Some people think dials were made using plastic discs like the one you showed earlier and some others think a special resin or other transparent compound (shellac could be a candidate, PMMA would be another one) was hot pressed onto the back of the dial filling the cutouts (similar to how resin dials are made). With time the pressed compound would have shrunk due to the heat caused by exposure to radiations and when disassembling the dial 70 years later it would have appeared like a plastic insert.
It is my personal opinion that a solid plastic layer would not be affected the same way, not mentioning the technical difficulties in making such precise shaped inserts not affecting the needed level of transparency back in 1930.
Just as a side information, plastic materials were quite new in the 30's and Italy wasn't exactly a technically advanced country back then. The only plastic materials available were bakelite and PMMA (perspex), with the latter being invented in 1928 and commercially produced in 1933 in Germanyt, that would have left just a handful of years for Panerai to master its craftsmanship to a level that apparently no one can achieve nowadays.

 

[fan_pam]

I am sorry, I have no definitive answer for you. As I said this matter has been discussed extensively over at Homage Forum and it would be pointless to start it back from the very beginning.
Some people think dials were made using plastic discs like the one you showed earlier and some others think a special resin or other transparent compound (shellac could be a candidate, PMMA would be another one) was hot pressed onto the back of the dial filling the cutouts (similar to how resin dials are made). With time the pressed compound would have shrunk due to the heat caused by exposure to radiations and when disassembling the dial 70 years later it would have appeared like a plastic insert.
It is my personal opinion that a solid plastic layer would not be affected the same way, not mentioning the technical difficulties in making such precise shaped inserts not affecting the needed level of transparency back in 1930.
Just as a side information, plastic materials were quite new in the 30's and Italy wasn't exactly a technically advanced country back then. The only plastic materials available were bakelite and PMMA (perspex), with the latter being invented in 1928 and commercially produced in 1933 in Germanyt, that would have left just a handful of years for Panerai to master its craftsmanship to a level that apparently no one can achieve nowadays.

To summarize, it's a mystery to this day..

Thank you again for your help and for the information.