Please Help!! Gen/VSF 3235 - all works but hour and minute not moving or moving but extremely slow!? Issue?

[StanGENROL]

Hi guys!

Yesterday I finished my 126610 build with my gen 3235 is gen 98% so my 3235 using vsf intermediate wheel on the side and underneath date plate that connects to hour wheel central and to date jumper wheel/spring, then I got seconds wheel and minutes and hour gears from vsf rest is all gen on movement, it’s something I want replace but in near future I just wanted to get my watch to work and start using it, now 78% is new parts some are remaining of my gen 3235 post car crash, now all work balance do work all moves if I pull crown to time set position and then if I turn crown as soon I hit 00:00 time flips then if pull crown to just date change date do flip and changes, now all works the only very strange thing I have noticed if I fully tide the screws on bridge of gears balance won’t oscillate as if fully screwed bridge is to tide to let gears like minute hour and seconds spin(see pic ) but losing slight screw will allow balance oscillate and second hand moves and all moves, but then yesterday once I put all together closed case seconds hand moves but hour and minute just seats at same set time, now I did check my cannon pinion and it looks good it is nicely clamped, now what are your thoughts guys on this ? Can be this because also screws are some of them VSF ? Aren’t vsf screws supposedly were done to spec of gen ones ?


Screw /bridge in question:

Side note all bridges and plates are gen.




Can this bridge be the issue being very tide ? Or seating to flat and not allowing gear to spin ? But then again when touching that gear it spins very well and freely!

See below before fully assembled movement gears spinning.

Some of time reading on movement,



So I cannot think of what can be this ?

I want to have this ready so much so I can go travelling to pick up my daughter and my wife to bring them back home as they are a board on holiday will be going in end November, still have some time to sort this out

 

[StanGENROL]

Oh and just wanted to say one thing the cannon pinion looks to be okay as I did press it with players other day, when I set crown to time change the hour and minute moves without jumping and I can feel gears tension when moving the crown so means all works as intended, so not sure if should I try to get once again press cannon pinion to tided it up bit more ?

 

[StanGENROL]

Any ideas guys anyone expert on 3235’s ?

 

[StanGENROL]

Anyone that has watchmaker knowledge and could perhaps give any suggestions on what this can be ? Do I need get gen screws do I have to reopen and try to tide up cannon pinion ? Thanks

 

[dogwood]

Check the end-shake of each of the train wheels with the bridge fully tightened down. In the video you posted in the OP it's unclear if the bridge is fully tightened down. If it is fully screwed down and the wheels spin freely then that's a good sign. But you still want to check the end shake of each of the train wheels to make sure there's at least a tiny amount of play in each of them. The other thing to consider is that your mainplate and your train bridge are gen, but your train wheels are rep. It's possible that the jewel hole sizes don't quite match between rep and gen parts. If the jewel holes are too tight then it's possible that you'll get too much friction and not enough energy transferred to the balance. Also, set the lift angle on your timegrapher to 55 degrees for the 3235 movement not 52 degrees -- having the lift angle set incorrectly will give you amplitude numbers which are incorrect (in your case the amplitude that gets displayed by your timegrapher is lower than it is in reality).

 

[freddy333]

if I fully tide the screws on bridge of gears balance won’t oscillate

If the balance runs until the bridge screws are tightened, that generally means the balance staff pivots are either bent, broken or misaligned with their cap jewel settings. I would begin by removing the balance & inspecting the balance staff pivots. Make sure the pivots are clean & not scored (they should be mirror smooth) & that the cap jewels are clean & properly oiled. Also, make sure the cap jewels are centered in their settings.
There could be other issues, but whenever the balance stops as you tighten the bridge screws, it indicates a problem with the balance/bridge position.

 

[StanGENROL]

If the balance runs until the bridge screws are tightened, that generally means the balance staff pivots are either bent, broken or misaligned with their cap jewel settings. I would begin by removing the balance & inspecting the balance staff pivots. Make sure the pivots are clean & not scored (they should be mirror smooth) & that the cap jewels are clean & properly oiled. Also, make sure the cap jewels are centered in their settings.
There could be other issues, but whenever the balance stops as you tighten the bridge screws, it indicates a problem with the balance/bridge position.

Well the balance wheel pivots are checked and pivots on palette fork on escape wheel are all in perfect order, the thing is that it’s only one screw that tide up will affect it the screw from side of escape wheel worth to say all that is gen and as said before except the Great Wheel, Seconds Wheel and Third Wheel along with the wheel for canon pinion central wheel is not gen is also aftermarket, so not sure and also the bridge was brand new from blister shinny and same for balance wheel the bridge for it jewels all brand new never used, I did put tiny bit of lubrificante using hp1300 hp9104 I used blue gerce for parts were is metal on metal like keyless and some gears , i watched tutorials on how to properly lubricate movement, now i did my best clean this movement but loads old oils and stuff still present now I don’t believe I ever oiled jewels on bridge for balance wheel.

I will be taking watch to a proper repair watchmaker to properly ultrasound clean and take all a part and oil all properly and adjust balance wheel with microstella key

Thanks fora ideas lads!!

Regards Stan

See below video for better understanding

 

[freddy333]

Stan, try this test --
Remove the balance & balance bridge.
Remove the pallet bridge & pallets.
Fully reinstall the balance & balance bridge without the pallets.
Use a dust blower to spin the balance.
Is the balance spinning freely in both directions & coming to a smooth stop?

 

[dogwood]

Another thing to try is to use thin metal foil under one corner of the train bridge to shim it so that it sits a bit higher. You can try with aluminum foil, but you’ll want to use proper brass or stainless steel shim stock long term. Adding 0.03mm of shim can be enough to allow you to tighten down the bridge and still have the wheels spin freely. Shims are a bit of a hack since what you really want to do is adjust the jewels, but if you don’t have a jeweling tool, you can try shimming.

 

[StanGENROL]

Another thing to try is to use thin metal foil under one corner of the train bridge to shim it so that it sits a bit higher. You can try with aluminum foil, but you’ll want to use proper brass or stainless steel shim stock long term. Adding 0.03mm of shim can be enough to allow you to tighten down the bridge and still have the wheels spin freely. Shims are a bit of a hack since what you really want to do is adjust the jewels, but if you don’t have a jeweling tool, you can try shimming.

Stan, try this test --
Remove the balance & balance bridge.
Remove the pallet bridge & pallets.
Fully reinstall the balance & balance bridge without the pallets.
Use a dust blower to spin the balance.
Is the balance spinning freely in both directions & coming to a smooth stop?

So guys I will try today some things first I will try sort out hand and hour issue see what is causing it to not go normally, then I will look at balance and bridge in meantime have a look at this video below thanks boys you are only guys to respond I really need help as I don’t want destroy my dream watch specially that I went so so far this movement costed me a kidney haha

Vimeo

vimeo.com

 

[freddy333]

Stan, I am a bit confused as to the exact nature of the current problem?
In the video, are the balance bridge screws fully secured or loose?
If they are secure, then your balance/bridge assembly appears to be working properly.
If they are loose, you should perform the test indicated above to narrow down the source of the stoppage.

If the movement is running, but the minute (& hour) hand remains stationary, I would check to be sure the train wheels are not missing teeth & are fully seated into the plate. Check endshake for all train wheels. It could be that 1 or more wheels are vertically misaligned, so a wheel is not being turned.

I presume neither hand is touching the other hand or the dial?

 

[dogwood]

If the hour and minute hands don’t move it’s because the cannon pinion is too loose of a fit. If the cannon pinion is gen but the train wheels are rep, then it’s possible there’s a tolerance issue in the slip for between the two. You can either crush the cannon pinion a bit to tighten its grip. Or you can try using the rep cannon pinion.

 

[StanGENROL]

Stan, I am a bit confused as to the exact nature of the current problem?
In the video, are the balance bridge screws fully secured or loose?
If they are secure, then your balance/bridge assembly appears to be working properly.
If they are loose, you should perform the test indicated above to narrow down the source of the stoppage.

If the movement is running, but the minute (& hour) hand remains stationary, I would check to be sure the train wheels are not missing teeth & are fully seated into the plate. Check endshake for all train wheels. It could be that 1 or more wheels are vertically misaligned, so a wheel is not being turned.

I presume neither hand is touching the other hand or the dial?

Well all screws including the balance wheel are all tide up to the max not over tide of course, but only one screw is not fully tide is the side screw on side of the escape wheel jewel, as if I tide that one then balance will stop, now I’m thinking if I don’t have same screw issue on the bottom bridge for the central wheel which then takes the seconds wheel and cannon pinion as that is secured by 2 screws but again when looking at cannon pinion it has play up and down meaning that it should be fine, all screws are tide properly except that one on top on bridge holding all gears.

 

[StanGENROL]

If the hour and minute hands don’t move it’s because the cannon pinion is too loose of a fit. If the cannon pinion is gen but the train wheels are rep, then it’s possible there’s a tolerance issue in the slip for between the two. You can either crush the cannon pinion a bit to tighten its grip. Or you can try using the rep cannon pinion.

But strangely friend they move when I move my crown to set time but once crown in normal position ready to tide in then seconds hand flys beautifully but the hour and minute will just stay there, I did check all teeth on gears they are all there as I have taken this a part now 2/3 times and did check and double check, all looks in place. Now only I can think of is cannon pinion as cannon pinion is not gen I got installed and my central wheel which takes cannon pinion is aftermarket so they should be okay but my all other parts such as hour wheel is genuine.