Panerai straps? Are they really hand made??

[tootall]

I hope this is in the right forum if not, please move it to the appropiate one.

I have been researching and researching and it seems that I have come up with a problem. A LOT of the straps that are considered handmade are in fact not truly handmade.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/handmade

What has happend is that the term "hand stitched" has become to be known as handmade. This for me is a problem. These straps that are costing quite a bit of money and claiming to be handmade are a lie. The cutting, skiiving, the stitch holes, the burnishing, and even the tang holes are all done by machine. How is it then that they can claim handmade??

Now I am not saying this goes for all "handmade" straps, just for the majority from what I have seen. I just don't think it is right to call something handmade and lead the buyer into thinking it is handmade when it isn't. Handmade should carry with it the idea of no machines invloved, labor intense by the maker, and uniqueness in that the maker will not be able to duplicate that same strap in that same exact way again.

If you all can think of any other ideas that should accompany a handmade strap, (the imagery your mind comes up with when someone says 'this is a handmade strap') I would love to hear them as well.

Or... you may think I am just crazy and this needs to go straight to the looney bin. [smilie=occasion18.gif]

 

[Klink]

see

the cow slides down the cute..

gets cut up into filet, steaks, roast, ground meat, sausage..

the hide is shunted off to the Panerai strap factory,

is cured, hair taken off (mostly) and cut into strips for favorite size straps..

then goes to artist, who colours the stuff.. and to the machine that has different

sizing knives.. and stitching, is all automatic... the only hand that ever touches is

that of oplerator!

simple...

 

[tootall]

I can only guess you have created the head of a snakey thread of many pages as everyone sets their own standards and demands the death of all strapmakers

I sure hope not. I just wanted to see what others thought, and give them information that they may not have otherwise known. I am not knocking all strapmakers. Just wondering why they say handmade when they aren't. IMO it does sell more to put that label on it. Because of what I mentioned earlier about the imagery behind "handmade".

I think that if we go by definition of 'handmade' and 'machine' the difference is obvious. One could on and on with "where does it stop?" type questioning. IE; there was a machine that made the hammer that you use. But, I am talking about definition wise being made by hand. I don't see that as a grey area. Either you use a machine or you don't.

Tanning leather is another topic all together. I will suffice to say that veg-tanned is close enough for me. Especially when they use organic tanning agents.

So maybe "problem" wasn't the best word to use. How about "sneaky misnomer"?

 

[tootall]

Hey all, I am digging this thread back from the grave, due to my disgust with a strapmaker whom I used to have major respect for. So I pose the question to all of you:

Please define handmade, in your opinon. American Heritage defines it as: Made or prepared by hand rather than by machine.

My definition is pretty much along the same lines. I feel that if any mechanical device is used in the process it is not considered handmade. By process, I mean after you have all the tools and material, the assembly and fabrication of the strap uses no mechanical device.

Let me know what you think, and if anyone even cares?

 

[Highflyingclive]

I cannot add anything to Enzo's posts.

Except agreement.

 

[hooligan]

I would agree with you, tootall. If it says "handmade" I would expect that the strap is folded, glued, stitched and punched by hand.

Who is the target of your new disgust, if I may ask?

I honestly don't have a preference of "handmade" vs. machines. The vintage pieces lend themselves to handmade straps a bit more easily than some of the contemporary straps, IMO. A Fiddy or a 6152 looks much more at home on a handmade strap than does a NorthPole or the like.

Some watches "need" the more polished look of a machine made strap to me.

YMMV.

 

[tootall]

I would agree with you, tootall. If it says "handmade" I would expect that the strap is folded, glued, stitched and punched by hand.

Who is the target of your new disgust, if I may ask?

I honestly don't have a preference of "handmade" vs. machines. The vintage pieces lend themselves to handmade straps a bit more easily than some of the contemporary straps, IMO. A Fiddy or a 6152 looks much more at home on a handmade strap than does a NorthPole or the like.

Some watches "need" the more polished look of a machine made strap to me.

YMMV.

Would you also agree that the reason a person would say "handmade" is to have higher price?

I won't mention his name.... yet

That is a good point. I think other brands can benefit from a machine made strap vs a handmade strap. But imo, Panerai watches all look better when the straps are truly handmade. That's just my opinion though.

 

[hooligan]

I have no idea, as I don't pay any attention to whether or not a strap claims to be "handmade".

Yes, most Panerai's look good on handmade straps, but IMO, some of the rougher straps with vintage looking leathers and/or unfinished sides don't look right on the contemporary PAMs.

 

[tootall]

So out of the 260 some odd people to view this thread only 6 have an opinion? Come on guys.

Is it that most people don't care about this sort of thing? I certainly do, especially when spending over $100 on a strap.

 

[hooligan]

In my honest opinion, the simple fact that it is handmade doesn't automatically demand a higher price. Is there increased cost in producing the strap? Probably. But if the quality isn't on par with other machine made straps, I wouldn't pay the same price, handmade or not.

I have no problem paying $100+ for an MP, a Stephens, a Delaurian, etc. I don't care if they are 100% handmade or not. I wouldn't pay $100+ for a StrapCulture or Ginsler strap, though.

Just my opinions...

 

[tutima]

In my honest opinion, the simple fact that it is handmade doesn't automatically demand a higher price. Is there increased cost in producing the strap? Probably. But if the quality isn't on par with other machine made straps, I wouldn't pay the same price, handmade or not.

I have no problem paying $100+ for an MP, a Stephens, a Delaurian, etc. I don't care if they are 100% handmade or not. I wouldn't pay $100+ for a StrapCulture or Ginsler strap, though.

Just my opinions...

Well said....That price I am willing to pay for a strap is totally depending on the quality of the finished product whether it is hand made or not.

 

[vbarrett]

Hey all, I am digging this thread back from the grave, due to my disgust with a strapmaker whom I used to have major respect for. So I pose the question to all of you:

If it's the same one I'm thinking, I knew immediately when I got his strap, that it wasn't "handmade" (anymore, presumably).

Please define handmade, in your opinon. American Heritage defines it as: Made or prepared by hand rather than by machine.

Having just had this conversation privately with you , I would agree, and respect your decision to be disappointed with a fudging of the truth. We were having a long discussion on RWG about certain LWL (little white lies) we accept as consumers about "1:1" cases, etc.

However, I think this fudging is inherent in any business, especially if it's successful enough to become an industry.

As demand rises, even those who stood fast in their principles are both lured by more revenue, but also a need to genuinely to keep up with popularity.

I don't really think it is a question of greed. I think it's a question of degree of greed in relation to ego.

But ultimately, you're right. "Handmade" should mean that, 100%.

 

[turbogt]

I guess this is a common situation:

You might buy an Armani suit supposedly handmade (although the most probable thing is that is made in a line factory, best of lucks in Italy or the worst in China) and both of them have good quality. It's not that they don't.

Buuuuuut it's a total different thing to have a Zegna custom made when you actually when to an expert taylor, and you saw the process from measurement and textile, to the fine adjutsments on the way. All in a relative short period. Now that's a really handmade suit and you can feel the difference between them.

My point is, most definetly a really handmade product has more attention to detail and personalization than semi handmade (whereas this one only has QC). And if you can get a handmade product for a better price than the semi, WHY EVEN BOTHER TO CONSIDER A SEMI?

Cheers!

 

[hooligan]

My point is, most definetly a really handmade product has more attention to detail and personalization than semi handmade (whereas this one only has QC). And if you can get a handmade product for a better price than the semi, WHY EVEN BOTHER TO CONSIDER A SEMI?

Cheers!

I disagree that this is a given in all situations. I guarantee that if I handmade a strap that it wouldn't be anywhere near as nice as any of the mass produced straps. :wink:

I see your point, but handmade doesn't *automatically* mean better quality or attention to detail.

 

[turbogt]

My point is, most definetly a really handmade product has more attention to detail and personalization than semi handmade (whereas this one only has QC). And if you can get a handmade product for a better price than the semi, WHY EVEN BOTHER TO CONSIDER A SEMI?

Cheers!

I disagree that this is a given in all situations. I guarantee that if I handmade a strap that it wouldn't be anywhere near as nice as any of the mass produced straps. :wink:

I see your point, but handmade doesn't *automatically* mean better quality or attention to detail.

Of course, you MUST have to take in consideration who's making it and their expertise and experience.

 

[tootall]

So it seems that some people care and some people don't. I personally care if someone is misleading me. Oh well. Good discussion.

 

[hooligan]

I certainly care if I'm being deceived. I just don't think that 100% handmade is a guarantee/indicator of quality by default.

If I feel a strap is worth $XXX, I'll pay it, regardless of if it claims to be handmade. The problem is the definition of "handmade" is different depending on whom you ask. I don't have an answer as to what the solution is, unfortunately.

I agree, though. Good discussion. :wink:

 

[Cats]

I personally judge the strap on the quality and the looks.
The term hand made doesn't inlfuence my buying behaviour.

I agree if people are using the term hand made just to increase the sales price to a level which doesn't reflect the expectation it's wrong to my opinion.

regards,
cats

 

[austin870]

I kind of prefer the word "custom" to handmade. If you are going to get into semantics then every single part and process has to be handmade or you are abusing the word. That includes handmade thread, tanning and all process's involved. To just "assemble" the parts and process's by hand is not handmade in the literal sense by a longshot. That would be "hand assembled" machine and synthetic /chemical process made parts.

If you are looking for a certain level of "handmade" you better know all your terminology and ask all the questions of the maker before purchasing. I have no sympathy for someone who sets expectations for a band and does not ask the questions.

The problem with the term "handmade" is once the first guy starts using it out of context with success everyone is foced to follow suit. Just like the "Swiss Made" we see so often.

 

[ssalxpanerai]

In my opinion, hand made is for cut, fold, stich, finishing.

But I don't really mind much for the word "hand-made". But I think the matter for me is personel-made or individual made. If you call it hand-made but several people line up and do it by hand like production line one process for one person, it has no meaning to the skill of individual to claim to. In opposite, if only one person makes the strap but use all the tools to make it look nice even sewing by machine, I still don't mine at all. I also prefer the later case. I can't stand for the hand stitch but the stitch is not nice and claim that it is done by hand. I think it is not a professional hand and should be sold as defective.

Hand or not hand, the quality standard must be defined clearly. Otherwise, all the defective will become hand-made reasons. Never like it that way. IMO.