PAM111 status as 'Super Rep'

[Sultan Brunei]

I just bought the new PAM111, and after seeing the QC pictures, and do a quick detailed movement search and comparison, I began to realize that PAM111 should not be praised as a 'Super Rep'. Or am I wrong?

For example, on the first look at the dial, one can easily spot the nipple on the cannon pinion, that shouldn't be there.
When one look at the back, despite of the Y-incabloc or not, one can easily spot the rep just by seeing the finish of the bevel of ratchet wheel, also by seeing the finish of the bevel of crown wheel.
Gen's bevel is polished, while this super rep bevel is brushed, correct?

How about the crystal of the rep, is it good enough sapphire-like minimum reflection like the gen? Do I have to send the crystal for AR process?

 

[superspark69]

I just bought the new PAM111, and after seeing the QC pictures, and do a quick detailed movement search and comparison, I began to realize that PAM111 should not be praised as a 'Super Rep'. Or am I wrong?

For example, on the first look at the dial, one can easily spot the nipple on the cannon pinion, that shouldn't be there.
When one look at the back, despite of the Y-incabloc or not, one can easily spot the rep just by seeing the finish of the bevel of ratchet wheel, also by seeing the finish of the bevel of crown wheel.
Gen's bevel is polished, while this super rep bevel is brushed, correct?

How about the crystal of the rep, is it good enough sapphire-like minimum reflection like the gen? Do I have to send the crystal for AR process?

the old one didn’t have a nipple on the cp this is now a new flaw, as for the ratchet and crown wheel, they have always been like that but the movement was never absolutely perfect hence why people get Marlin to mod them

 

[superspark69]

the old one didn’t have a nipple on the cp this is now a new flaw, as for the ratchet and crown wheel, they have always been like that but the movement was never absolutely perfect hence why people get Marlin to mod them

Also the AR on gen pams has never been great as they are single ar

 

[gt_boy98]

Hi. I’m interested in getting a PAM as well. May I ask which version did you buy and from which TD?




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[Sultan Brunei]

the old one didn’t have a nipple on the cp this is now a new flaw, as for the ratchet and crown wheel, they have always been like that but the movement was never absolutely perfect hence why people get Marlin to mod them

What I meant was, they shouldn't consider the 111 as super rep, considering that one can only need to see the finishing of ratchet and crown wheel to easily identify a rep. (Gen wheel is polished, Rep wheel is brushed)....
Do you agree with this?

 

[Sultan Brunei]

Also the AR on gen pams has never been great as they are single ar

From what I learnt as a gen owner (I do not own a gen PAM as of current), and what I read on the web, is that eventhough gen AR is mostly single-sided, they still look better than single-sided AR of rep quality. Do you think so too?
For example, The AR on my rep PAM382, 243 I think I am satisfied with it, AR on my 372 is just mediocre, however the AR on my rep PAM351 is very very bad.

How about AR and overall crystal feel on this rep PAM111, compared to gen AR and crystal?
I once saw my friend's gen PAM005, and at first glance I saw that the crystal has somewhat deep-effect, and it is almost glareless while not perfectly glareless. (I hope you understand what I meant)

 

[Sultan Brunei]

Hi. I’m interested in getting a PAM as well. May I ask which version did you buy and from which TD?




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this is a 111 noob v5. you can get this same model from any TD. however if you are looking for 'perfection' I don't think this model is for you. look for another model with closed caseback.

 

[superspark69]

From what I learnt as a gen owner (I do not own a gen PAM as of current), and what I read on the web, is that eventhough gen AR is mostly single-sided, they still look better than single-sided AR of rep quality. Do you think so too?
For example, The AR on my rep PAM382, 243 I think I am satisfied with it, AR on my 372 is just mediocre, however the AR on my rep PAM351 is very very bad.

How about AR and overall crystal feel on this rep PAM111, compared to gen AR and crystal?
I once saw my friend's gen PAM005, and at first glance I saw that the crystal has somewhat deep-effect, and it is almost glareless while not perfectly glareless. (I hope you understand what I meant)

If you have a read from some of the wonderful info on the site, the Pam reps are some of the best ever made. There is lot of info on the crystals too. I think you would be surprised to how close some of these pams are to their gen counterpart.

 

[mysterio]

What I meant was, they shouldn't consider the 111 as super rep, considering that one can only need to see the finishing of ratchet and crown wheel to easily identify a rep. (Gen wheel is polished, Rep wheel is brushed)....
Do you agree with this?

First off, how does one "easily see" a feature that is on the back side of a watch? You would have to be in a situation where taking the watch off your wrist is required, which for the most part would be in a Risti gathering (where it is customary to take a table shot of all the watches in attendance) or when you are taking it off to try on a watch at an AD (which we also do not condone). Basically any situation where you are trying to pass off the rep as gen. Second, you put too much stock in gen owners' capabilities. Most of them couldn't even tell if the font on the 3 is wrong for the series, or which series had brushed CGs and polished ones, let alone the fit and finish of things such as the crown and ratchet wheel. Heck, some of them can't even recall what reference their PAMs are. :lol:

 

[Sultan Brunei]

If you have a read from some of the wonderful info on the site, the Pam reps are some of the best ever made. There is lot of info on the crystals too. I think you would be surprised to how close some of these pams are to their gen counterpart.

Some, yes, but not all. I am utterly confident to say that the AR on my PAM351 is completely rubbish compared to gen PAM351. Had the chance to compare directly.

 

[Sultan Brunei]

First off, how does one "easily see" a feature that is on the back side of a watch? You would have to be in a situation where taking the watch off your wrist is required, which for the most part would be in a Risti gathering (where it is customary to take a table shot of all the watches in attendance) or when you are taking it off to try on a watch at an AD (which we also do not condone). Basically any situation where you are trying to pass off the rep as gen. Second, you put too much stock in gen owners' capabilities. Most of them couldn't even tell if the font on the 3 is wrong for the series, or which series had brushed CGs and polished ones, let alone the fit and finish of things such as the crown and ratchet wheel. Heck, some of them can't even recall what reference their PAMs are. :lol:

I agree with all your points.
However in my case, I have quite a lot of watch-loving friends who is always eager to have a look and try on the beatiful watches that me & my other friends wore. We usually do weekend meetups, and this is where it happens.
When they have a try on the watch, it is usually accompanied by admiring all the aspects of the watch. This is perfectly normal.

Second, I am sure most gen owners don't have capabilities to check what is wrong and what should've been there.

The point is , why would anyone brand the PAM111 as a super rep, when it obviously still have a lot of minor detail flaws... lol

 

[chocolito]

I agree with all your points.
However in my case, I have quite a lot of watch-loving friends who is always eager to have a look and try on the beatiful watches that me & my other friends wore. We usually do weekend meetups, and this is where it happens.
When they have a try on the watch, it is usually accompanied by admiring all the aspects of the watch. This is perfectly normal.

Second, I am sure most gen owners don't have capabilities to check what is wrong and what should've been there.

The point is , why would anyone brand the PAM111 as a super rep, when it obviously still have a lot of minor detail flaws... lol

I don't think you get the term ' Super rep ' or have read the definition of a ' Super rep ' at the top of the consensual list !

Which reads ' MOST IMPORTANTLY REMEMBER EVEN A SUPER REP IS A REPLICA . THIS IS NOT ABOUT PERFECTION ! THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A DIFFERENCE . THIS IS ABOUT GOING AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO THE GEN '

At the end of the day you are buying a ' fake ' watch which costs $200 under 20 times cheaper than a gen PAM 111 .

If you can't cope with 1 or 2 minor flaws on a watch ! Flaws that 99% of people wouldn't see and the other 1% of so called experts would need to carefully examine the watch to see, then replica watches are not for you .

To be honest there isn't a ' super rep ' or a watch on the NWBIG Consensual List that hasn't got minor faults if you know what you are looking for . You are always going to be disappointed chap .

NO REP is perfect . I suggest you stick to gens on your watch meets with your watch guy friends .

 

[mysterio]

I agree with all your points.
However in my case, I have quite a lot of watch-loving friends who is always eager to have a look and try on the beatiful watches that me & my other friends wore. We usually do weekend meetups, and this is where it happens.
When they have a try on the watch, it is usually accompanied by admiring all the aspects of the watch. This is perfectly normal.

Second, I am sure most gen owners don't have capabilities to check what is wrong and what should've been there.

The point is , why would anyone brand the PAM111 as a super rep, when it obviously still have a lot of minor detail flaws... lol

Obvious is a relative term. You can only say that because you've read about it. But if faced with something you have no idea about, would you still say it was obvious? If you meet with watch-loving friends then which type are they? If they are the judgemental type who brand people who wear reps as fake people (and that's being generous), then best to only wear gens when in their company.

 

[CurioLeo]

There are definitely super reps that will fool even knowledgeable people to some extent if they are not expert on that particular model / brand. However , the point of a super rep is not to fool people. It is to make YOU feel that when you look at ypur wrist, you don't feel like you would rather just wear a gen watch. Will there be flaws ? Of course, it is a fraction of the cost of a gen. Even with marketing, prestige mark up, reasonable profit margins etc there has to still be some corners cut to get the cost down to rep levels. If you want to be pedantic, no open caseback can be at the level of a gen - the movement is where the bulk of the extra production cost lies. Get a 005, 87, 288 etc instead of a 111 and you will be satisfied and you can even hand it to people at a get together if you really want. BUT you will still know it is a rep, what is the point of trying to fool watch enthusiasts at a meet up when you can't fool the one person that matters ??? Trying to sell a rep as a gen is a whole other kettle of fish and strongly recommend not going there.

 

[KSwatches]

You don’t have to know anything about PAMs to identity a rep as a rep.

Just look at the finish.

Rep hands are a give away. They are never clean, particularly along the sides where you can see specs of lume and the finish on the movement is obviously different to anyone that knows what they’re looking at.

Therefore, talking about the shape of the CG or the lack of pinion polish is rather academic. Typical watchmakers and gen enthusiasts don’t know about these subtle gen vs rep differences, for every watch in the world. As far as they are concerned, they could be gen variations over the years.

that’s why the first thing my watchmaker does is look at the hands. Look at the shape of the hands. Gen vs rep differences when talking about the hands is not clear on picture comparisons but in real life gen hands is what anyone in the know will notice.




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[bosaftw]

There are definitely super reps that will fool even knowledgeable people to some extent if they are not expert on that particular model / brand. However , the point of a super rep is not to fool people. It is to make YOU feel that when you look at ypur wrist, you don't feel like you would rather just wear a gen watch. Will there be flaws ? Of course, it is a fraction of the cost of a gen. Even with marketing, prestige mark up, reasonable profit margins etc there has to still be some corners cut to get the cost down to rep levels. If you want to be pedantic, no open caseback can be at the level of a gen - the movement is where the bulk of the extra production cost lies. Get a 005, 87, 288 etc instead of a 111 and you will be satisfied and you can even hand it to people at a get together if you really want. BUT you will still know it is a rep, what is the point of trying to fool watch enthusiasts at a meet up when you can't fool the one person that matters ??? Trying to sell a rep as a gen is a whole other kettle of fish and strongly recommend not going there.

Is the 005 still available?
Intime website says “out of stock“ for Noob V2.

 

[CurioLeo]

bosaftw , I have no idea. I think DSN may have his version available new . If not, they do pop up M2M. If you decide to get a DSN and notice the 5218-201a while looking around on his website, don't try to pass that off as a gen unless you are in the habit of wearing $100k watches

 

[superspark69]

bosaftw , I have no idea. I think DSN may have his version available new . If not, they do pop up M2M. If you decide to get a DSN and notice the 5218-201a while looking around on his website, don't try to pass that off as a gen unless you are in the habit of wearing $100k watches

The 5218 201a varies from 11k to 20k, it’s the 202a that’s mega bucks

 

[CurioLeo]

superspark69 , are you sure ? There are several for sale around $50k at the moment. I would happily pick one up for 11k.

 

[superspark69]

GBP £ yes, have a look on chrono24, most expensive is 30k