• Tired of adverts on RWI? - Subscribe by clicking HERE and PMing Trailboss for instructions and they will magically go away!

PAM104 vs PAM312 (PAM359)

lolo1972sg

Respected Member
Certified
3/10/15
3,595
333
83
Sillypore
Hi folks

I am looking forward to making my first PAM replica purchase and my initial requirements are:

1) has to be an automatic (not hand wind)
2) 42-44MM (not bigger than that cos I have a small wrist)
3) preferred polished SS (second choice will be brushed)
4) preferred clear back case (this is a killer requirement because it narrows significantly my choices)

Fast forward a lot: the choices narrow to these 3:

1) PAM 104 (N factory O series): i like it that it is a super rep although it does not have a clear case. However, when I was about to make a purchase with a chinese dealer, I was told that this model is not "stable". I did not ask what is the meaning of stable but I guess it is about 2 things: a) accuracy of the movement and, probably more importantly, b) the failure rate of this model of watch. In fact, a separate search on google seems to indicate that N factory does have this issue since it has higher volume (quality is usually inversely proportional to the volume they have).

2) PAM 312 (KW-V6 Fac O series non inverted KP9000 seagull v2): i like this because i think, for a clear case, this is the best automatic rep you can get for a PAM model (actually PAM 359 is another good candidate). The main reason is the 6 o clock position of the non inverted balance wheel, which is closest to the actual gen's 7 o clock position. The problem with this model is a) it is not a super rep (yes, I am contradicting myself....) and perhaps more importantly is that b) I was told that the Tianjin ST2555 movement used is not as accurate as it should be for whatever reason?

3) PAM 359 (basically almost the same as 312 except for the numeric dial and the polished steel. I love polished steel).

So, gentlemen, I would like to hear your view on these 3 choices and if possible, I wonder whether any of you could provide some guidance on the following:

1) do you know of any known issues with the PAM 104 (n factory o series)? Be it quality or stability or accuracy?
2) do you know of any known issues of the PAM 312/359 movement? Be it quality, stability or accuracy? Both of the above are using Tianjin Seagull St2555 if I am not wrong.
3) I know puretime is one of the TD who sells the PAM104 (n factory o series). Is there any other TD who deals on PAM 104 (n factory o series)?

Thanks in advance :)
 

spankster23

I'm Pretty Popular
6/8/13
1,266
27
48
Texas
104 is an all polished case. a7750 movement AND wears much smaller on the wrist. It's is a luminor case 44

312/359 are brushed cases with polished bezels. decorated (plates) a7750. Same movement as 104. Without the plates. They are Bigger watches sit higher and look wider on the wrist. These are 1950 luminor cases.

Then there is the 312/359 with the ST2555 movement. Usually cheaper the 7750 model. I'm not a fan of these though. Same case different movement.

104 is a more accurate representation of the gen.
 

lolo1972sg

Respected Member
Certified
3/10/15
3,595
333
83
Sillypore
104 is an all polished case. a7750 movement AND wears much smaller on the wrist. It's is a luminor case 44

312/359 are brushed cases with polished bezels. decorated (plates) a7750. Same movement as 104. Without the plates. They are Bigger watches sit higher and look wider on the wrist. These are 1950 luminor cases.

Then there is the 312/359 with the ST2555 movement. Usually cheaper the 7750 model. I'm not a fan of these though. Same case different movement.

104 is a more accurate representation of the gen.

Thanks. Looks like one vote for the 104. Would you know any other TD other than intime for the N factory O series version please?
BTW, i thought the 359 is a polished case version while the 312 is brushed.
And, I just came across this thread and it seems like ST2555 has better accuracy (https://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/189712-KW-312-a7750-vs-seagull-ST2555/page2).
Mind sharing with me what are the issues that you have heard on the ST2555? Or is it just because of the common notion that cheaper means poorer quality (which could well be true).
 

Perry

Active Member
12/5/07
423
0
0
I own all of these watches. I am not a fan of the modern case set preferring the 1950 style cases. The 1950 case set has a huge WOW factor. Just a much more stunning look. My vote goes strongly to the KW 359. It's one of my most prized rep watches. The 359 has a polished case. In termes of movement I have had a few Asian 7750s arrive broken. These can be serviced however. The ST movements I've owned worked and are working perfectly however if and when they break they can't be serviced or so I am told. I would think a new ST movement could be purchased cheaply to replace the broken one.
 

ALE7575

Section Mod
Section Moderator
Certified
18/1/11
19,846
423
83
If you are afraid about the size of your wrist. I would say that Luminor 1950 case wears a lot more than Luminor Bettarini case. this is duo to the shape and the thickness and this is not a negligible thing.
Then your better choice would be a Super rep PAM104 Noob O-series
We are talking about reps, therefore you can assure nothing regarding reliability or quality. A7750 , and mainly without chrono functions is reliable enough and will usually work many time. In case of problems you will be able of getting a service or repair

ALE
 

lolo1972sg

Respected Member
Certified
3/10/15
3,595
333
83
Sillypore
Couldn't find a PAM104 Noob O series and finally after reading thru easily 100+ pages of great info here, I have settled down with the PAM111 N v3.
Just placed an order with Toro Bravo this morning via WU.
Thanks all for the great info/advice here. Really great stuffs :)
 

dennis7899

Known Member
14/8/14
154
8
18
I went with a PAM299. It is almost identical to the 104, but with a brushed case.
 

lolo1972sg

Respected Member
Certified
3/10/15
3,595
333
83
Sillypore
Yup. I was also tempted by the 299 especially since some of the TDs here were giving disc. But the brushed case and the ss bracelet were the 2 key reasons why I did not pull the trigger. Would probably have to get another leather strap and worse is I would not know what to do with the bracelet....


In any case, am still pretty excited with my PAM111 Noob V3 which is OTW. Tracking number received yesterday night and I have to say the experience with TB till date is very very good. Great TD!


Am now also researching for a non pam ceramic/pvd (non bracelet) rep....

I went with a PAM299. It is almost identical to the 104, but with a brushed case.
 

lolo1972sg

Respected Member
Certified
3/10/15
3,595
333
83
Sillypore
As far as I know the better choice would be PAM 026

ALE

Thanks for that advice but the 026 seems to be a lefty and if so, then it is not really my cup of tea. But I have to admit that I love that white markers+hands vs black dial+case contrast. Very classy. And I would have seriously considered that if I were a lefty too.

As of now, I am looking at the hublot BB v6.5. Saw a fantastic looking one on intime site (http://www.intime.co/hublot/955-big-bang-v6-factory-ceramic-bezel-case-on-black-rubber-strap.html) but I am not sure whether there is a similar gen in the real world. But yes, hublot BB v6.5 is now on top of my ceramic list. :)
 

Lagunax

I'm Pretty Popular
18/4/15
2,769
1,576
113
CONUS
I own all 3: a Noob Pam 104 (N), a KW 351 (Seagull ST255, titanium version of the Pam 312), and a smaller wrist (6.5").
Never had a problem with the 104 or Seagull movements.
The 104 does fit a smaller wrist better but the 312/351 has more stage presence:
image_zps3ubm80yz.jpeg
 

ALE7575

Section Mod
Section Moderator
Certified
18/1/11
19,846
423
83
As of now, I am looking at the hublot BB v6.5. Saw a fantastic looking one on intime site (http://www.intime.co/hublot/955-big-bang-v6-factory-ceramic-bezel-case-on-black-rubber-strap.html) but I am not sure whether there is a similar gen in the real world. But yes, hublot BB v6.5 is now on top of my ceramic list. :)

This Hublost is a magnificent choice. The quality and accuracy are at the same level as the best PAMs.
Read if you don't know it:
“Official Thread” HBB V6 Evolution – Compilation of data
https://forum.replica-watch.info/vb...B-V6-Evolution-%96-Compilation-of-data-(pics)

If you have a limited budget you could get a V1.5 version or Lite.
http://www.torobravo2015.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=34_70&product_id=85
Be careful it should be a real V1.5, other Lite versions are not the same. Toro watch V1.5 is OK
This is the last "evolution" of the legendary V1 from H maker. It is almost perfect and you will have only the differences as follows:
- Less accurate movement but accurate enough with the old movements from Hublot (numeral are old type usually)
- Crystal flush with the bezel instead of raised
- Chrono pushers made of plastic instead of rubber
Leaving aside above commented differences the rest of the watch is almost the same and the price is a bargain.
But this version could be out of stock now. Be quick

ALE
 

lolo1972sg

Respected Member
Certified
3/10/15
3,595
333
83
Sillypore
This Hublost is a magnificent choice. The quality and accuracy are at the same level as the best PAMs.
Read if you don't know it:
“Official Thread” HBB V6 Evolution – Compilation of data
https://forum.replica-watch.info/vb...B-V6-Evolution-%96-Compilation-of-data-(pics)

If you have a limited budget you could get a V1.5 version or Lite.
http://www.torobravo2015.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=34_70&product_id=85
Be careful it should be a real V1.5, other Lite versions are not the same. Toro watch V1.5 is OK
This is the last "evolution" of the legendary V1 from H maker. It is almost perfect and you will have only the differences as follows:
- Less accurate movement but accurate enough with the old movements from Hublot (numeral are old type usually)
- Crystal flush with the bezel instead of raised
- Chrono pushers made of plastic instead of rubber
Leaving aside above commented differences the rest of the watch is almost the same and the price is a bargain.
But this version could be out of stock now. Be quick

ALE

OMG, you are tempting me...... This is so evil..... 2 rep in 2 weeks? But it is sooooooooo beautiful.
 

lolo1972sg

Respected Member
Certified
3/10/15
3,595
333
83
Sillypore
I own all 3: a Noob Pam 104 (N), a KW 351 (Seagull ST255, titanium version of the Pam 312), and a smaller wrist (6.5").
Never had a problem with the 104 or Seagull movements.
The 104 does fit a smaller wrist better but the 312/351 has more stage presence:
image_zps3ubm80yz.jpeg


I love all your straps and of course that 104 that I should have gotten. Unfortunately, the Noob version was just not available at this moment.

BTW, mind telling me from which TD did you get that right-most and that left-most straps please? The left most one looks like cognac color, doesn't it?
 

ALE7575

Section Mod
Section Moderator
Certified
18/1/11
19,846
423
83
OMG, you are tempting me...... This is so evil..... 2 rep in 2 weeks? But it is sooooooooo beautiful.

Trust me. You will be impressed by the quality
Really nice reps

ALE
 

lolo1972sg

Respected Member
Certified
3/10/15
3,595
333
83
Sillypore

lolo1972sg

Respected Member
Certified
3/10/15
3,595
333
83
Sillypore
Of course I (in fact we all) trust you. Looks like I have to sell some of my existing watches (including a 2 weeks Parnis homage) away to keep my collection small and tidy...

I should be deciding as soon as my PAM 111 arrives. Could be today or tomorrow.

Trust me. You will be impressed by the quality
Really nice reps

ALE
 

lolo1972sg

Respected Member
Certified
3/10/15
3,595
333
83
Sillypore
Trust me. You will be impressed by the quality
Really nice reps

ALE
wrist%20shot%201_zpsggi36zyo.jpg


You are absolutely right. Fantastic rep.
Any advice or good next recommendation for a small wrist (see pic, my wrist is actually about 5.7inches), or should I still stick with a Hublot BB v1.5.
Would you think that a Noob V5 Sub will sit better on my small wrist?