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PAM 417 opinions

Novacane84

Do not accept unsolicited offers
18/10/16
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Hey guys, newbie here and I wanted to get your guys' opinions on this KW PAM417. More specifically the gap in between the crown guard and the crown. Is this how the KW models are made or is this a too big of a flaw for approval? Thanks for all your help in advance!!
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Ruski91

Respected Member
12/10/12
3,178
100
48
Thanks Mysterio - Seems like every KW 417 i have looked at indeed appears to have a thicker crown making the gap much smaller. I am curious to hear the thoughts of [MENTION=35350]ALE7575[/MENTION] and [MENTION=99741]KILO[/MENTION]watorre
As is - i think this would merit a rejection or at least a message to the TD asking about the thin crown?
 

Novacane84

Do not accept unsolicited offers
18/10/16
4
0
0
Thank you guys for your input. Here's a few more QC pics to help out. Any other input is much appreciated. Thinking the crown is too small. Would this warrant a rejection?

8f01eb723be092cc72d7873b1b13c252.jpg


6c42cbc61439b8a366e3e88e7eda6836.jpg


10d24e6d0d865f98014d3c920ccc7b0a.jpg



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kilowattore

Sales Moderator / Section Moderator
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Moderator Sales
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11/5/13
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I too think it's too thin. I would reject it tbh.
 

btruijens

Getting To Know The Place
15/9/16
40
0
0
Yes. Rejection is best. It would keep bugging you. Here's mine, same issue was important to me. Did not arise however.
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YOUR CONSCIENCE

Banned member, the goat does not approve
Banned
16/5/16
28
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0
Good decision in rejecting it! The crown is very thin. My 417 had a thin crown and the movement failed after 2-4 months of light usage. Not sure if there is enough data for a correlation but better to be safe than sorry.
 

mysterio

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19/8/08
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Good decision in rejecting it! The crown is very thin. My 417 had a thin crown and the movement failed after 2-4 months of light usage. Not sure if there is enough data for a correlation but better to be safe than sorry.

Crown thickness does not affect movement reliability (well none that I know of that's conclusive anyway). It's all about accuracy of replication. I would not complain if all boutique editions had this and it was a known issue, but this would be an exception than the rule. :)
 

YOUR CONSCIENCE

Banned member, the goat does not approve
Banned
16/5/16
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Crown thickness does not affect movement reliability (well none that I know of that's conclusive anyway). It's all about accuracy of replication. I would not complain if all boutique editions had this and it was a known issue, but this would be an exception than the rule. :)

Are you sure about this? From what I have observed, the crownguard lever on this model does seem to be designed to put downward pressure on the winding stem. Changing the tolerances of the crown might affect how well the stem is situated inside the movement. Moreover, it is noteworthy that people like me like to fiddle with the crown even while the crown while the lever is in the closed position. It's also interesting to note that my movement's winding mechanism failed. Just a thought.

As far a replication, the movements are Unitas 6497 replicas made by Chinese firms. Since ETA/Unitas no longer have the patents for these old movements, the Chinese can make them legally. If serviced by an expert, the reps can perform as well as the gen Unitas 6497/8s. The only downfall of the Chinese movements is the quality control/less cleanly factories.

Of course, you are right and this isn't conclusive but it is an educated guess on my part.
 

mysterio

Mythical Poster
Advisor
19/8/08
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Are you sure about this? From what I have observed, the crownguard lever on this model does seem to be designed to put downward pressure on the winding stem. Changing the tolerances of the crown might affect how well the stem is situated inside the movement. Moreover, it is noteworthy that people like me like to fiddle with the crown even while the crown while the lever is in the closed position. It's also interesting to note that my movement's winding mechanism failed. Just a thought.

As far a replication, the movements are Unitas 6497 replicas made by Chinese firms. Since ETA/Unitas no longer have the patents for these old movements, the Chinese can make them legally. If serviced by an expert, the reps can perform as well as the gen Unitas 6497/8s. The only downfall of the Chinese movements is the quality control/less cleanly factories.

Of course, you are right and this isn't conclusive but it is an educated guess on my part.

I understand the reasoning for the guess. But just because they're connected physically, it does not always mean a problem in one is correlated to a "perceived" issue in another. The thickness of the crown is a replica accuracy issue, not a functional one (since you can adjust for it as I will explain below).

Let us go to your guess as to the rationale behind the design of the lever. Maria and Guiseppe Panerai's Patent application number 2,954,655 to the USPTO filed on Nov. 30, 1955 in Italy and filed in the USPTO on Oct. 1960 mentions specifically that the lever's function when locked is to keep the sealing relationship between the crown (or knob) and the sealing ring, thereby ensuring its water tightness. When the long part lever is rotated around the pivot point (the CG pin), it releases the contact of the short arm on the knob allowing the knob to be used for winding, or when axially shifted (or pulled out in layman's terms), to set the watch. Nothing more, nothing less. Now the crown (knob) is certainly connected to the winding stem but its thickness would not have any impact on any imagined stem position inside the movement, only on how much pressure the short lever tip puts on the crown. On the newer PAMs like the PAM417, you can see a hex bolt underneath the crown. You can adjust this to modify the lever "snap". :)
 

groot

Known Member
11/6/17
124
9
0
About the thickness and tolerances of the crown, the 417 crown has a rebate so it is possible to maintain the same tolerances for the CG lever while increasing the thickness of the rim and thus the crown. Just need to increase the depth of the rebate.

I understand what it's like about fiddling with the crown with the CG lever in closed position. That's how I wind my MM20 all these years.