PAM 027- Super rep wanted

[peterbhamal]

Hello,
Can anyone recommend a reliable source to purchase a PAM 027 with a Swiss ETA 2892-2. I desire a polished SS case. I believe the PAM 028 is the black PVD case.
Thank You,
Peter

 

[braith7]

Hi Peter,

Unfortunately there is no Super Rep of the 027.

Check ALE's guide - http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=107365

Either choose another model that there is a Super Rep for, or see if you can deal with the comments that have been made on that model.

As far as sources go, you can trust the Trusted Dealers here. Again, if you go to ALE's Guide there will be links to dealers who have each of the models - you will still need to check with them that they are available but the Super Reps seem to be normally.

edit - As far as you wanting a Swiss movement... Hopefully ALE or one of the other senior guys will chime in but its a bit debatable if its worth the extra money - I think its pretty much understood that you arnt getting the same quality as the movements in the gens, they are some sort of half breed I think... I defer to others though...

Happy Hunting

 

[Fiddo]

No Super Rep of this watch. This is probably as close as your gonna get-------------------> http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=42967

 

[d4m.test]

No Super Rep of this watch.

Hi Peter,

Unfortunately there is no Super Rep of the 027.

I respectively throw down the CHALLENGE on this point. DSN 27A and 28A ARE SUPER REPS. I really think Ale and the Panerai consultant team should re-evaluate this.

For everyone who is unfamiliar, here are DSN's power reserve Reps

Black dial
027A: SS with 1997 T dial
027B: SS with 1998 L dial
Black Hobnail
028A: PVD with 1997 T dial
028B: PVD with 1998 L dial
028J: PVD with 2006 L dial
Tobacco Hobnail
057C: Ti with 1999 L dial

The only one of this bunch that is considered a super rep is the 057C, but I argue that this is only a first class rep. This is due to one main reason....The dial is beautiful with correct font, number shape, accurate hobnail, and recessed power reserve, but the index around the numbers (space between the rehaut and the numbers) is twice as wide as it should be. This is a major tell and very easy to see. I argue that a "Super Rep" should not have such an obvious tell. All of DSN's power reserve dials have this issue.....EXCEPT, the A Series T dials. It turns out he made all of the dials with the same index based on the A series when he should have revised his B, C, and J series dials to have the correct margin.

Now on to the A series. I have been staring at pictures of these, considering a purchase. I have gotten quite good at spotting differences. Even the CG which is normally a very obvious tell is much closer to gen than most DSN efforts. Furthermore If you upgrade to a JF, EL or even Sead CG, you have a damn near indistinguishable rep.

Check out some pictures.

DSN Dial


Gen Dial


DSN Lugs


Gen Lugs


DSN Super Rep


Rep Like Gen


And now the 057C Although beautiful check out the difference between the margin on the DSN and and the Gen.

DSN 057C: "L Swiss Made L" about 1mm above the rehaut, wide margin like the A series.


Gen 057C: "L Swiss Made L" sits on the rehaut, very narrow margin around the dial

 

[ALE7575]

Hi Grim
Really interesting study and statements.
Very useful the info about PAM 057, evaluate Super rep more due to beauty than for final accuracy as you well have said.
We really had a pending re-evaluation of some DSN reps Power Reserve included.
We had problems to evaluate different years, as you well say, and many times we had lack of info about the case-set with the CG and crown

Since I see you have knowledge enough about these matters and even have some definitive conclusions. I would ask you for making a list of DSN Power reserve reps with year series and your opinion about :

Dial-
Case-lugs-besel-caseback
CG- crown- lever
Your evaluation

I would like you started a separate thread, similar to previous post, but a bit more elaborated and organized, and clarifying exactly your opinion about all reps involved

In this way we will be able to decide, accordingly with you, of course, and mainly taking in consideration your study, the final evaluation for these interesting and nice replicas.

I will include in PAM GUIDE your study and your opinions, like the references, for all reps studied

Your kind cooperation would be very much appreciated

Looking forwards to your news

Thanks in advance

ALE

Send me a PM if you need more details
Things like this make great the PAM GUIDE !!!

 

[sleeper]

Hey gt, agree with you on these offerings. Used his 28a case, hands and glass for a build not long ago. Went with the old school dial and eta movement with the almost perfect rotor and Jacob back to finish it off. Damn nice. Working on a 26b t dial I got from , few tweeks here and there on that one to finish off but nice from the box without.

 

[braith7]

[/FONT]

I respectively throw down the CHALLENGE on this point. DSN 27A and 28A ARE SUPER REPS. I really think Ale and the Panerai consultant team should re-evaluate this.

We had problems to evaluate different years, as you well say, and many times we had lack of info about the case-set with the CG and crown

Since I see you have knowledge enough about these matters and even have some definitive conclusions. I would ask you for making a list of DSN Power reserve reps with year series and your opinion about...

...In this way we will be able to decide, accordingly with you, of course, and mainly taking in consideration your study, the final evaluation for these interesting and nice replicas.

I will include in PAM GUIDE your study and your opinions, like the references, for all reps studied

The system works!

 

[d4m.test]

Ale. I will do this! You have my word. I should have the DSN 027A in the next week. It will help with my process to have the actual watch in hand. Looking forward to this! I will make sure my review is up to standard so the Pam Consulting Team can go to work!

I really do believe these A Series Power Reserve watches are among the best reps made, with almost 1:1 dials and genuine 2892 ETA fitted with 9040 Soprod. It is amazing to me that they go so unnoticed. Plus they are unique! There are very few Panerai reps with sweeping center second hands.

Excited to be able to contribute.

 

[Z3k0]

[/FONT]
I respectively throw down the CHALLENGE on this point. DSN 27A and 28A ARE SUPER REPS. I really think Ale and the Panerai consultant team should re-evaluate this.

How in the world did you come to this conclusion ?? I mean you obviously don't own neither of these watches, since you are using my 027 pictures. I used to have both, I still have 028, and these watches, quality wise, are not even close to latest PAM releases like Noob 029, 243, 111 V3, some KW releases etc. Only thing super about these watches is movement, it really is as close to gen as you can get OOB in any rep. I have written one short review of latest ("new born") DSN 027 in 2012, but it seems it doesn't exist here any more, probably got lost in one of the outages since. So, here it is again:
--
I'm not sure if DSN officially released new born 027, but since I noticed new case on his Photobucket, I shoot him an email, and asked when will new case be available. He offered me "upgrade" - to send him my watch and he will upgrade it with new parts. I rejected that, and we agreed on me sending him old parts, and when he receives parts and my payment, he'll send me new parts. Well, some two months after sending my parts, and month after making payment I received my package
Of course, I sit at my desk straight away, and started assembling my "new born" watch. Unfortunately, as time went by, my enthusiasm started to wain So, to cut to the point here are my thoughts about this new set of parts:
GOOD:
- new crown and tube, really great job done, absolutely no need to replace it
- visually better looking lugs, not so short and stubby any more
- hmm, can't remember anything else


BAD:
- lugs still can't accept thick straps (and I don't mean super-thick here), for example rubber straps (old style) from latest H and noob offerings - pretty much 1:1 dimensions, can't possibly be mounted with tubes, not even squeezed in
- there is no strap lip (I'm not sure is this correct or not, but definitely does not help with previous problem)
- DW has thicker font OK, but it seems to me it was just old font printed two times with small offset ... looks like poorly focused picture
- CG - biggest flop of all: odd shape (see pics), strange screws used, strange position of CG holes, lever tip (crown facing) looks like it was done by chain saw
- related to previous - aftermarket CGs (like Sead A-F) CAN'T be used because CG holes have completely sc*ewed up position (like on previous case), and CG does not fit case profile (unlike previous 027 case that accepted Seads CG nicely)
- quality of case is poor in comparison to latest PAM offering, screws feel very coarse, and like thread is gonna strip after 5 operations, movement holder is poorly machined etc.


All in all, I would say huge disappointment, at least for me, but here are some pictures, so you can see what am I talking about:

--
regards

 

[d4m.test]

How in the world did you come to this conclusion ?? I mean you obviously don't own neither of these watches, since you are using my 027 pictures. I used to have both, I still have 028, and these watches, quality wise, are not even close to latest PAM releases like Noob 029, 243, 111 V3, some KW releases etc. Only thing super about these watches is movement, it really is as close to gen as you can get OOB in any rep.

Great question you ask here! And amazing pictures too! I come to this conclusion by looking at the pictures you and others have taken. I don't think it is critical to own the watch to critically review its qualities, especially when you have access to photos as high quality as yours!

A few comments on your review:
-You skip the fact that his A series 027A dial is extremely beautiful and accurate. In my opinion having an accurate dial is a vast majority of the battle. It is the sole reason why I have decided not to purchase the 057C.
-you seem to be very focused on the CG being bad. I agree with you but at the same time I have studied many gen photos and seen huge variances with the gen contemporary CG in CG Body shape, tip shape, thickness, pin placement relative to the edge. I almost wonder if panerai had different vendors?
-you also focus on the lugs being too narrow for a thick strap. I currently own 3 DSN newborn cases and can't say I have seen that problem. Maybe you have a bad case?

I will own this watch soon and do my own in hand assessment. Until then I depend on photos that show me:
1. A gen like dial
2. A gen movement
3. A bezel with seemingly accurate dimensions
4. A great looking crown and tube (as you state)
5. A much improved case shape with "decent" lugs
6. A CG with room for improvement (see H factory CGs, that are still on watches considered super reps)

In my opinion the above factors can lead to a rating of Super Rep, but that is not for me to decide.

 

[ALE7575]

Many thanks Grim for accepting the chalenge.
Your study will be really useful

And of course Z3k0 can discuss over Grim study or even making by himself another one.
But, please we would need documented and complete studies not isolated opinions.

We will hear every opinion well founded

Thanks in advance for the effort

Waiting for your reviews

ALE

 

[Z3k0]

Great question you ask here! And amazing pictures too! I come to this conclusion by looking at the pictures you and others have taken. I don't think it is critical to own the watch to critically review its qualities, especially when you have access to photos as high quality as yours!

A few comments on your review:
-You skip the fact that his A series 027A dial is extremely beautiful and accurate. In my opinion having an accurate dial is a vast majority of the battle. It is the sole reason why I have decided not to purchase the 057C.
-you seem to be very focused on the CG being bad. I agree with you but at the same time I have studied many gen photos and seen huge variances with the gen contemporary CG in CG Body shape, tip shape, thickness, pin placement relative to the edge. I almost wonder if panerai had different vendors?
-you also focus on the lugs being too narrow for a thick strap. I currently own 3 DSN newborn cases and can't say I have seen that problem. Maybe you have a bad case?

I will own this watch soon and do my own in hand assessment. Until then I depend on photos that show me:
1. A gen like dial
2. A gen movement
3. A bezel with seemingly accurate dimensions
4. A great looking crown and tube (as you state)
5. A much improved case shape with "decent" lugs
6. A CG with room for improvement (see H factory CGs, that are still on watches considered super reps)

In my opinion the above factors can lead to a rating of Super Rep, but that is not for me to decide.

OK, great, I hope you will enjoy it! I agree with you that dial is fantastic indeed, very gen like except maybe for lume color, but this is supposed to be aged T lume, so you can always have variations in color. But, you will have pretty hard time enjoying it through DSNs cloudy crystal
So to wrap this up - as someone who owned this watch for few years and spend a lot of money and effort trying to bring it as close to gen as possible I stand by my opinion that case-set of DSN 027 is sub-par, with lot of things that can't be corrected.
Just to add for sake of completeness - there actually was another 027 rep, in ancient rep times, infamous Honpo version. It had real 1:1 case-set, Soprod movement with engraved rotor, and upgraded with DSN dial and hands and Sead of JF CG could be real stunner. But, they are extremely rare, and when they do come up for sale they go for well over 1k US$
I'm not really into grading of reps, I leave that to the experts (and "experts"), so I can't really comment is this "super" or "duper" or whatever else grade there is.

regards

 

[korneevy]

I am with the rest on DSN's grading. His stuff is SOOO inconsistent in terms of quality and fit and finish that I cant be bothered anymore. One order you get an almost perfect case but crappy crystal with glued-on cyclop and horrid CG, try to swap them for other maker's better parts and it does not work, buy "replacement" parts from him and they dont fit either, screws are crap and all threads (inc those on CG) are so poorly done that its not funny...Next time you get horrible case but nice dial etc etc etc. Not sure why or what are the reasons for this, DSN is a very nice guy to deal with but the $$$, time and energy that goes into getting anythign half-decent out of his reps are not worth the effort. I have 3 of his 202 cases that are completely useless and so go figure how much that 202 cost me in the end Now, if I could install his 027 dial+movement into a Noob 029 case, that be a great watch does anyone know if this will work?

 

[d4m.test]

Now, if I could install his 027 dial+movement into a Noob 029 case, that be a great watch does anyone know if this will work?

Z3k0 and Korneevy, these are both VERY compelling arguments. I think DSN gets a bad rep for his inconsistent quality and much of it is well deserved according to things I've read and QC horror stories from previous years. Current deliveries I have received from DSN, I have been very happy with the quality, including crystal clarity (more clear than a Noob V3 I have recently installed)
I am holding out hope for this 027A since I just spent a "small" chunk of change on it. I am hoping for the best!

Either way, I will add crystal clarity comparison and (Noob vs DSN vs Big Matt C3) and a screw thread study to my review.

I hope that people can remove their pre-conceptions of DSN inferiority when analyzing my upcoming review.

BUT KORNEEVY! the suggestion above is a VERY intriguing option. I may buy one to test it out!

 

[ALE7575]

I'm not really into grading of reps, I leave that to the experts (and "experts"), so I can't really comment is this "super" or "duper" or whatever else grade there is.

regards

Dear friend

If you are making fun of evaluations you are making fun of many people in this and other forums, because many people are asking for that as a guide to help in selection and purchase, and I am receiving many e-mails and PM asking for more evaluations and saying thanks to take the time in this job.

I can assure you that neither Grim nor me (nor you) need evaluations to get an idea about the quality of a replica or decide a purchase. But we are making that to help people who don't get your knowledge and need some little guide to start the selection or to decide a final purchase in PAM rep jungle.

As I always say, if you know a better way, please let me know to do it immediately to can help more people and better.

But I'm afraid you will prefer the easier way of the sarcasm and talking just about several reps you know well

Anyway all well documented opinions will be welcome, of course, in this forum. And I'm sure that Grim is taking note of your and korneevy's observations

Regards
ALE

 

[Z3k0]

....
Now, if I could install his 027 dial+movement into a Noob 029 case, that be a great watch does anyone know if this will work?

Nope, that doesn't work, that is first thing I tried when I got Noob 029 Stem is too low, Soprod module is pretty thick, it would take some serious engineering on the case to make it work, and then crown would probably sit pretty low on the case and that would look wrong ...

regards

 

[Z3k0]

Dear friend

If you are making fun of evaluations you are making fun of many people in this and other forums, because many people are asking for that as a guide to help in selection and purchase, and I am receiving many e-mails and PM asking for more evaluations and saying thanks to take the time in this job.

I can assure you that neither Grim nor me (nor you) need evaluations to get an idea about the quality of a replica or decide a purchase. But we are making that to help people who don't get your knowledge and need some little guide to start the selection or to decide a final purchase in PAM rep jungle.

As I always say, if you know a better way, please let me know to do it immediately to can help more people and better.

But I'm afraid you will prefer the easier way of the sarcasm and talking just about several reps you know well

Anyway all well documented opinions will be welcome, of course, in this forum. And I'm sure that Grim is taking note of your and korneevy's observations

Regards
ALE

No, I'm not making fun of evaluations or reviews or people making them (hell, even I have made few in all these years). And I think your guide is fantastic thing, I use it very often and am grateful for all effort that went into it. I'm just saying that this grading system is futile in my opinion. One thing is to help new members by summarizing all available information and directing them where to find additional info, but trying to squeeze every different PAM rep into some pre-defined class is a bit too much. But, if that is what everyone around here wants, great, I'm happy.
And yes, I usually talk about reps I know well - i.e. the reps I own or have owned and familiarized my self with. Again, not trying to make fun of anyone, just thinking it might be useful contribution to this community.

regards

 

[ALE7575]

No, I'm not making fun of evaluations or reviews or people making them (hell, even I have made few in all these years). And I think your guide is fantastic thing, I use it very often and am grateful for all effort that went into it. I'm just saying that this grading system is futile in my opinion. One thing is to help new members by summarizing all available information and directing them where to find additional info, but trying to squeeze every different PAM rep into some pre-defined class is a bit too much. But, if that is what everyone around here wants, great, I'm happy.
And yes, I usually talk about reps I know well - i.e. the reps I own or have owned and familiarized my self with. Again, not trying to make fun of anyone, just thinking it might be useful contribution to this community.

regards

Hi friend
Firstly many thanks for your kind words regarding PAM GUIDE.
I’m very glad for your reply and happy for the good mood of your reply.
Of course, your opinion is considered really useful as a contribution to the community and I personally appreciate your cooperation.

Is very respectable your opinion about rep evaluations, and in some way I agree with you and ask many times people don’t take evaluations as a fixed rule, mainly because the quality of a rep is a very subjective matter with a lot of nuances, since all reps have flaws and we should decide, by ourselves, which flaws we are willing to live with.
But people like in general the evaluations, are asking for evaluations and talk constantly about evaluations. When I introduce a replica in the guide with “pending evaluation” I receive every day PM asking for a definitive classification.
This is how thinks are working nowadays, and people like this system. Indeed the GUIDE receives at this moment about 400 views (YES! four hundred) everyday.
I can say in defence of evaluation system that, in general, people are happy with the reps that they are buying taking in consideration this system. Because I have received hundred of messages saying thanks for the advices and evaluations in the GUIDE, and I only can remember a “claim” regarding a defective PAM 183. And the PAM GUIDE is already running for almost two years!!

That said, I think that this system is what people want and I will try to continue getting info enough to determine an evaluation for all PAM replicas included in the GUIDE.
In this regard I ask you, the same as Grim, for make the most detailed review of the reps you know, or you can get info about, in order to get the most precise data to evaluate DSN reps we are talking about.
If you are n willing to do a review, just publish your opinions in an organized way detailing all models and series you want talking about and write your opinions about case, dial, crystal, CG, caseback, hands, etc…
Or just comment over Grim’s future review. As above said I really will appreciate your kind cooperation

Thanks again for relaxing the ambience.

ALE

 

[Z3k0]

Hi friend
Firstly many thanks for your kind words regarding PAM GUIDE.
I’m very glad for your reply and happy for the good mood of your reply.
Of course, your opinion is considered really useful as a contribution to the community and I personally appreciate your cooperation.

Is very respectable your opinion about rep evaluations, and in some way I agree with you and ask many times people don’t take evaluations as a fixed rule, mainly because the quality of a rep is a very subjective matter with a lot of nuances, since all reps have flaws and we should decide, by ourselves, which flaws we are willing to live with.
But people like in general the evaluations, are asking for evaluations and talk constantly about evaluations. When I introduce a replica in the guide with “pending evaluation†I receive every day PM asking for a definitive classification.
This is how thinks are working nowadays, and people like this system. Indeed the GUIDE receives at this moment about 400 views (YES! four hundred) everyday.
I can say in defence of evaluation system that, in general, people are happy with the reps that they are buying taking in consideration this system. Because I have received hundred of messages saying thanks for the advices and evaluations in the GUIDE, and I only can remember a “claim†regarding a defective PAM 183. And the PAM GUIDE is already running for almost two years!!

That said, I think that this system is what people want and I will try to continue getting info enough to determine an evaluation for all PAM replicas included in the GUIDE.
In this regard I ask you, the same as Grim, for make the most detailed review of the reps you know, or you can get info about, in order to get the most precise data to evaluate DSN reps we are talking about.
If you are n willing to do a review, just publish your opinions in an organized way detailing all models and series you want talking about and write your opinions about case, dial, crystal, CG, caseback, hands, etc…
Or just comment over Grim’s future review. As above said I really will appreciate your kind cooperation

Thanks again for relaxing the ambience.

ALE

No problem, we're all on the same team here. Just trying to get our reps as perfect as possible
Keep up the good work.

regards

 

[markiemark]

Some people did use Sead's A-F CG, so I assume it is possible to install it...