Opinions for a noob's 1st PAM rep

[pamegalex]

Hi guys,

Done a ton of research on PAMs for the past few weeks thanks to the PAM reference guide. I must say it took AWHILE to go through that review on all the PAMs but it was well worth it. So a massive thank you for all those who had an input in that review.

As you guys are aware, I'm a noob venturing into the rep world and is about to take the 1st step towards owning a PAM rep. The one question that I would like to put it to the floor is this: are there any major difference between a first class rep bordering super and a super rep?

In this instance, I'm referring to 2 particular PAM that's caught my attention: the 104 and 359. The 104 is a super rep while the 359 is a first class near super due to its cloned movement. Now I'm not an expert in the movement department by any means but from what I've gathered, the new KW v2 seagull st2555 is a better movement compared to the 7750. And that is the reason why it is rated as a first class near super rep instead of a super rep.

So my question is this: should I go ahead with the 359 because I absolutely LOVE it but the fact that it'd been classified as a first class near super rep by the PAM experts here is playing on my mind a lil (I know I know it shouldn't but it is and I kinda can't help it) or should I go for a well known super rep in the 104 instead.

I really don't mind either one but and might even end up getting both eventually but for the time being, seeing as this is gonna be my first rep, I'd like to know what you all think. And have I mentioned how much I LOVE the 359?

Btw I've contacted some TD's regarding the 104 and 359 and is just a click away from paying Just wanted to get some honest opinion of you more experienced PAM experts out there

E14

 

[Hawker789]

I'd say go with what you love. Believe me, in time you'll own more than 1! In the real world people generally are not going to know the difference as most PAM's are so close to the real thing. The 359 is stunning and pictures generally don't them justice

Good luck and look forward to the pics

 

[d4m.test]

Hi and welcome. Not a PAM-specialist, just an owner and I go with what I like. Imo get the 359 and avoid the A7750 whenever You can, also in non-chrono watches. Better to have a reliable and good time-keeper than an over-decorated and difficult to work on movement, which anyway is not gen. Most important 4u: search below the TD-section for forum strapmakers and pick up nice, thick 2 straps right now, these "make" the watch and You will be able to use them on other PAMs. Look out for special offers, doesn´t have to be the more expensive ones, just 2 different from each other.

Take 2: while the "super-rep" or not classification is a very interesting read and useful as an initial guide to go from it obliges to certain quite valid but stringent criteria (like closed caseback is better ´cause You don´t see the movement or different weight from gen which limit the choices a lot. Imo much understated reps amongst others are the 212 Flyback with beautiful domed crystal (no "real" flyback function/ movement not gen-like), the 193 Submersible (weak rep-lume/ no "real" depth - gauge function) otherwise perfectly gen-like. Before I ended up with the 386 (waterproof Titanium-lightweight-rep, the composite material Gen was never released) the 359 was my choice
The 243 could be Your 2nd one.

Just some PAM-pics to enjoy:
212 - sausage dial

212 and 386

193

actually becoming my favourite with most wrist-time because its a perfect time-keeper with good power reserve, it sits perfect on the wrist and it has some
heritage behind it, a simple $150 47mm Mini-Egiziano (delivered in the 60mm version to the Egyptian military in 1956) with the best 21j movement I´ve seen

 

[ALE7575]

Dear friend
Firstly many thanks for your kind words and your confidence

Evaluation of reps is a very SUBJECTIVE matter, we are trying to give the most exact and fair classification but it is impossible to get the perfection because it is also obviously impossible to get an appropriate evaluation system. Many times is a personal taste matter
Therefore you should use the Evaluations just as a GUIDE to get info about the quality of the reps but not an absolute criteria
Usually modern First Class reps with decorated movements are, leaving aside decorated movement, better than old or even modern Super reps with closed caseback.
There is another important feature in PAM modern reps, introduced by the good quality reps from KW, that is the gen-like appearance. For me and for many people this is an important matter since you cannot see little flaws without a closed inspection whereas gen-like appearance can be seen from some distance.

So, don't be worried about getting a First Class rep instead a Super rep due to above mentioned reasons
PAM 359 KW is an AWESOME watch with a perfect finish and a strong gen-like appearance. No doubts regarding a purchase if you really like it

ALE

 

[kilowattore]

+1
Go with whatever you like the most.
The open case back showing a rep movement is a non issue for me. Movements are nicely decorated and a joy to see, just don't try to pass them as gen
As ALE said use the guide as a lead to get an idea of what is available and with what quality level, but don't follow the evaluations strictly because there are many subjective aspects to be taken into consideration.
I would go for 359

 

[d4m.test]

Check ALE's guide, I think it specifically notes models that are great for first PAM rep.

 

[Ruski91]

Hey Eriction14

First let me welcome you to this amazing forum! It appears that you have done your homework which already sets you ahead of the game.

The 104 is considered a super-rep because of its closed case back - therefore you will not be able to see the movement inacuracies. Its a nice and simple watch looking watch, the only issue you may have the the DW magnification class. Often with PAM's you will find a Halo floating arround the numbers. It is arguable that this exists in gens as well, but in any case, just giving you the heads up.

Now to my favorite watch - the PAM 359.

The reason this is listed as first class and not super rep is for 2 primary reasons:

1 - the movement is not a clone of the P.9000 but rather either a 7750 or St2555 with bridges over them to make it appear as though its the P.9000 movement. With both movements, the layout is inverted (Backwards) when compared to gen. But how many people do you know that will be able to spot the difference? How many PAM aficionados in your circle, or rather how many aficionado's will actually have a chance to look at your watch's movement? I would say very few, am i right?

2 - The numerals on the dial, are ever so slightly larger on the rep compared to the gen. This is barely noticable unless you are comparing the two watches side by side.

Personally - i would consider this watch a super rep regardless of the inaccuracies mentioned above. And now on to some glamor shots that should help you decide.

 

[ALE7575]

I agree completely with mysterio and Ruski

ALE

 

[korneevy]

Well as long as we are on the subj is "super reps", one factor that I always apply to this is "serviceability" of the movement down the road. Not sure where you live etc., but let's just say that in most developed, metropolitan, large areas you can find a guy or two who know how to work on Valjoux 7750 and with the right degree of insistence (or money, which works well as well), they would have a go at fixing A7750, even through there are no parts, machining is poor etc etc etc. I am yet to find anyone who would even consider looking at Seagull or Chinese valjoux copy with glued on (!!!!) deco plates that make it almost impossible to take that thing apart. Sure you can adapt "break it and junk it" approach but somehow I tend to keep those reps that I like for a while - some have had for 4-5 years - and service them, water proof them, etc. just a quirk of mine, so if it's of no factor to you and you are ready to trash a watch whenever it develops a slight mechanical issue, go ahead and get those nicely cased watches with silly glued-on movements, and enjoy wearing them for as long as they run. I'd go against the grain on this thread and recommend for you to look the other way and get a noob 104 which is prob my most fav auto Pam as it is really, really close to the original, and the movement easily fixable or replaceable and hidden behind the back, so it gets my vote.

 

[ALE7575]

Well as long as we are on the subj is "super reps", one factor that I always apply to this is "serviceability" of the movement down the road. Not sure where you live etc., but let's just say that in most developed, metropolitan, large areas you can find a guy or two who know how to work on Valjoux 7750 and with the right degree of insistence (or money, which works well as well), they would have a go at fixing A7750, even through there are no parts, machining is poor etc etc etc. I am yet to find anyone who would even consider looking at Seagull or Chinese valjoux copy with glued on (!!!!) deco plates that make it almost impossible to take that thing apart. Sure you can adapt "break it and junk it" approach but somehow I tend to keep those reps that I like for a while - some have had for 4-5 years - and service them, water proof them, etc. just a quirk of mine, so if it's of no factor to you and you are ready to trash a watch whenever it develops a slight mechanical issue, go ahead and get those nicely cased watches with silly glued-on movements, and enjoy wearing them for as long as they run. I'd go against the grain on this thread and recommend for you to look the other way and get a noob 104 which is prob my most fav auto Pam as it is really, really close to the original, and the movement easily fixable or replaceable and hidden behind the back, so it gets my vote.

This is another interesting and respectable point of view !

As you can see...always a taste matter

ALE

 

[pamegalex]

First off, GREAT pics Daywatch and Ruski91! You sirs sure make me envy the living hell out of ya! :drool:The 386 in your 2nd pic looks the piece too and is actually on my ever so long shortlist of PAMs to get too . Just wondering how is durability on the 386 seeing that ALE mentioned in his guide that titanium scratches easily.

Also, appreciate your take on serviceability on reps korneevy. Def not something that has crossed my mind till you brought it up. I think its fair to say that I wouldn't be too fussed about that as long as it is a well made rep that could last me 4-5 years I'm more than happy with my investment

And yeah Ruski, you're right. Not many friends or even people that I come in contact with would actually be able to tell the movement of a watch by just looking at it or even up close. And its not like I'm trying to pass it off as a gen anyways. And I think I actually meant to say what you did regarding the movement, just got it wrongly in words lol. Just curious tho, if the layout is inverted, does that mean a more complicated movement as opposed to something like the 104? Sorry if that may not make any sense at all but I did mention I'm no expert in movement in ANY means.

Having said all that, I think I'm pretty set on the 359 being my 1st rep. Just wanted the floor's opinion in terms of the movement for a peace of mind I spose?

 

[jeep22]

Daywatch --- I love that pam 193.- can you tell me where you got it in a PM or something ? I'm new here so if the question is not allowed I get it. That is my grail watch

 

[pamegalex]

Jeep22, see ALE's guide http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/reference-pam-review-107365?t=107365
It has a list of TD's that carries the 193.

 

[Ruski91]

First off, GREAT pics Daywatch and Ruski91! You sirs sure make me envy the living hell out of ya! :drool:The 386 in your 2nd pic looks the piece too and is actually on my ever so long shortlist of PAMs to get too . Just wondering how is durability on the 386 seeing that ALE mentioned in his guide that titanium scratches easily.

Also, appreciate your take on serviceability on reps korneevy. Def not something that has crossed my mind till you brought it up. I think its fair to say that I wouldn't be too fussed about that as long as it is a well made rep that could last me 4-5 years I'm more than happy with my investment

And yeah Ruski, you're right. Not many friends or even people that I come in contact with would actually be able to tell the movement of a watch by just looking at it or even up close. And its not like I'm trying to pass it off as a gen anyways. And I think I actually meant to say what you did regarding the movement, just got it wrongly in words lol. Just curious tho, if the layout is inverted, does that mean a more complicated movement as opposed to something like the 104? Sorry if that may not make any sense at all but I did mention I'm no expert in movement in ANY means.

Having said all that, I think I'm pretty set on the 359 being my 1st rep. Just wanted the floor's opinion in terms of the movement for a peace of mind I spose?

The 104 - has a standard 7750 which is a great movement and you do not have functons of chrono or seconds at 6 which are the known problems of this movement. With seconds at 9, it is a simpler movement in terms of repair.

The 359 w/ 7750 (+ Decorated bridges), movemebt itself is the same as the 104, however, as korneevy said, because the decorative bridges are glued on, very few will work on this movement if it dies on you. Just food for thought.

The 359 w/ ST2555 (+ Decorated Bridges), Movemebt itself is awesome and pretty much a workhorse. Appears slightly more accurate with the balance wheel at 6 as opposed to the 7750 which has a balance wheel at 11. The genuine watch has the balance wheel at 7, so the ST2555 is 'closer' to gen in that regard, but still nowhere near a clone. Again, because of the glued on bridges, few will work on this is something happens.

Personally i have the 359 w/ 7750 and 388 w/St2555 - both of them with glued on plates resembling the P.9000.
Knock on wood - they have both been solid and no issues. While i certainly hope that they will last a while - i chose them for the look, because i was in love with the actual watch, and decided to take the gamble on the 'repairability factor'. But this is the rep hobby in a nutshell, each watch you purchase is a gamble, some are winners, some are loosers, but at a fraction of the cost, we can not really complain.

Go with the 359 - you will not regret it. But make sure to get yourself a nice custom strap for it. It will make it that much better.

 

[korneevy]

...

Also, appreciate your take on serviceability on reps korneevy. Def not something that has crossed my mind till you brought it up. I think its fair to say that I wouldn't be too fussed about that as long as it is a well made rep that could last me 4-5 years I'm more than happy with my investment

The point I was trying to make is that given it's a rep Valjoux to begin with, with some really questionable way of making it look a little like a Panerai caliber with the use of GLUE - and I get it, you don't know much about movements but if anyone tells you it's ok to glue movement parts together, look for an exit and just run the hell away - the resulting effect is that no one will ever tell or guarantee how long the watch will run for.

A good chance it will run for a year or longer; equally good chance that it just does tomorrow. Now, say it's happened on your PAM104, well it's a pain but really, no biggie - you either find someone who will fix it or just get an Asian valjoux off the bay for $70 and swap, problem solved. You get tie watch back, and it WILL run for a while. Simple.

Now, if same thing happened on your "manufacture" piece...Nobody will touch your glued-together movement, ever rep-friendly "watchsmiths" here will laugh if you ask to repair it, cause it's just that - a throw away hack job that just cost you $400 all up and you can kiss that paperweight good bye and may be next time, think of these factors when you choose a watch.

That's all, just don't want you to be under any illusion about this. But by all means, buy what sings to you, and deal with the problems later, it's a rep after all. Viola.

 

[pamegalex]

Go with the 359 - you will not regret it. But make sure to get yourself a nice custom strap for it. It will make it that much better.

Already placed an order with Sead for the 359 so fingers crossed! Still surveying the strap market now for a good one so I'll get there, eventually

The point I was trying to make is that given it's a rep Valjoux to begin with, with some really questionable way of making it look a little like a Panerai caliber with the use of GLUE - and I get it, you don't know much about movements but if anyone tells you it's ok to glue movement parts together, look for an exit and just run the hell away - the resulting effect is that no one will ever tell or guarantee how long the watch will run for.

A good chance it will run for a year or longer; equally good chance that it just does tomorrow. Now, say it's happened on your PAM104, well it's a pain but really, no biggie - you either find someone who will fix it or just get an Asian valjoux off the bay for $70 and swap, problem solved. You get tie watch back, and it WILL run for a while. Simple.

Now, if same thing happened on your "manufacture" piece...Nobody will touch your glued-together movement, ever rep-friendly "watchsmiths" here will laugh if you ask to repair it, cause it's just that - a throw away hack job that just cost you $400 all up and you can kiss that paperweight good bye and may be next time, think of these factors when you choose a watch.

That's all, just don't want you to be under any illusion about this. But by all means, buy what sings to you, and deal with the problems later, it's a rep after all. Viola.

Thanks for the honest opinion korneevy, appreciate it. And I understand the risks and gamble that comes together with this hobby. As I said, fingers crossed and hopefully all is good! And if its not, like you said, its a rep after all and definitely a learning curve for me

 

[jeep22]

Eriction14 thanks for the link found the watch

 

[ALE7575]

Eriction14 thanks for the link found the watch

ALE

 

[kier333]

Can I ask what strap is on your watch, I would love to get one, it looks amazing

 

[Helldiver]

The PAMs are one type of watches that makes you collect straps as well. For me the beauty of one particular PAM goes automatically with the beauty of the strap that keep it on your wrist.

Keep an eye on the strap offer of the trade section. Plenty of nice one to try on! If after few months you are still looking for something particular you can always ask a strapmakers to do one with your own specs. (But the price almost double compare to the one on the trade section).