movt question

[vdubpower]

just wondering, are they making the 6497 asian with a dagger swan neck thingy or just the pointy one with out the other thing that goes around it ( i dont know whats its called)

basically how can one tell nowadays between swiss and asian
i know a yr ago, u could cuz the swiss had that thing tha t goes around the point SNR and the asian didnt

 

[babola]

I was going to write something in response, but if I start I'm afraid I won't be able to stop ...this is a topic that has been written about a lot here and other rep forums...all I can suggest is - search engine is your friend 8)

...to get you started...

Asian - no swan-neck reg, no dagger reg

Hybrd Asian/Swiss - swan-neck and dagger reg

Swiss - pointy reg and swan-neck, and in the latest incarnation of H-series Swiss ETA 6497-1 - swan-neck and dagger reg (but only a very few dealers currently have this movement)

babola

 

[vdubpower]

so essentially, once could advertise swiss swan and dagger, but it could be a asian, and you basic joe ( like me) would not be able to decipher the difference?

 

[JOEJOEJOE]

so essentially, once could advertise swiss swan and dagger, but it could be a asian, and you basic joe ( like me) would not be able to decipher the difference?

If you read Ziggy's original post regarding the Hybrid/Swiss Dagger movement, you'll see that a screw on the base plate is missing. Ziggy marked it on the picture to point it out to the readers.

I am assuming the new "SWISS" dagger movement has this screw.

Joe

 

[tourby]

all dagger swan neck movements are asian

100% sure!

the older version with needle swan neck could be a swiss version... but have never hold it on my hand.

 

[crick]

swiss:

asian

 

[babola]

all dagger swan neck movements are asian

100% sure!

Well, not any more Turby...I guess you haven't seen the latest Swiss ETA 6497-1 with CDG, S/N with dagger-styled reg etc...have a look at the Davidsen's 176, which comes with one of these latest movt's.

DSN has confirmed - definitelly Swiss ETA !

http://forum.replica-watch.info/forum/vie ... hp?t=21532

cheers,
babola

 

[watchlover]

What babola said is true.

The tell-tale signs are the two blued screws: one on top and one on the bottom of the regulator thingamajigger..

The asian dagger mov't only has one blued screw on the bottom of the regulator thingie (I don't know what the name is)

 

[tourby]

@babola

yes Davidsen movement look like swiss

but G-Serie dagger swan neck movements (Joshua, Andrew, Pure Time, Paul etc.) are asian... i have bought one from this dealer and know it. You can´t change the winding gears on this movement... they are different as swiss movement.

 

[babola]

@babola

yes Davidsen movement look like swiss

but G-Serie dagger swan neck movements (Joshua, Andrew, Pure Time, Paul etc.) are asian... i have bought one from this dealer and know it. You can´t change the winding gears on this movement... they are different as swiss movement.

I know, I have 2 of those 'hybrids' as well. 2/3 Asian, 1/3 Swiss...yet our so called 'reputable dealers' sell them as Swiss ETA - shame on them all ! :x

Davidsen was one of the first (alongside Ziggy) to point out this dodgy mov't deal, and I congratulate him for that.

cheers
babola

 

[flavor flav]

all of the panerai bridges rep movements are asian.. some are nicer than others however.. the "swiss" versions sometimes have an ETA stamp and sometimes not... but, who do you think made the bridges to look like panerai bridges... do you think ETA would make replicas? i thinks not.....100% asian all of them and different grades. the ones with a pallet bridge instead of a cock are mostly good from what i've seen. some have an eta stamp...some do not. but the stamp....it's fake anyways.

 

[tourby]

Flav

is a guy who saw many genuine swiss movements and knows what he talk

 

[babola]

What surprises me (yet again) is the fact these blanket statements are still being made off the cuff, even after the very topic of this conversation has been discussed here and other rep forums for good number of times in the recent past.

The 'mechanical 6497 movement' has been dissected and evaluated number of times before by experienced real watchmakers (emphasis on REAL WATCHMAKER), being either full Asian or base movement of real ETA origin - we definitelly know one thing for sure - none of the 6497 movt's that power our reps are 100% Swiss made, the closest one to 100% is the movement that Enzo mentioned above, more specifically the 6497 OPII mov't that originally came in gen Panerai Luminiors made between '98-'02. This movement in its rep shape & form has only thin decorative steel plates glued on top of the stock ETA plates.

So, while none of them is 100% ETA in their finish, some of them are definitely are 100% ETA in their origin.

Another good example of original ETA 6497-1 mov't but with lot of Asian cosmetic bits added is the latest OPXI E-series mov't that comes in DSN's latest Fiddy - yes, the add-ons are purely Asian, but the original stock movement underneath is 100% ETA.

Enzo must be getting tired of repeating himself time and time again, and to be honest I'm getting to that stage as well. Although I haven't been in the 'game' as long as Enzo, Ziggy or few others respected members of the comunity I completely agree with their views on this matter, I know what I know, and know what I don't when it comes to all things mech PAM reps.

Take this for what you want, and for what it's worth...but I certainly belong to a group of people that simply don't subscribe to these bold and blanket statements, sorry.

good day to you all,
babola

 

[pugwash]

To be completely open about the whole thing, if you're talking percentages, then even ETA movements, sold by ETA in Switzerland, are not 100% Swiss. They have to be, by law, 50%+ Swiss, but the remainder is usually Chinese. What makes our "Mostly Swiss" movements any different?

Yes, of course we will always have Asian parts on our replicas, Enzo knows of what he speaks, but what we're arguing over is ETAness, not Swissness.

 

[babola]

To be completely open about the whole thing, if you're talking percentages, then even ETA movements, sold by ETA in Switzerland, are not 100% Swiss. They have to be, by law, 50%+ Swiss, but the remainder is usually Chinese. What makes our "Mostly Swiss" movements any different?

Yes, of course we will always have Asian parts on our replicas, Enzo knows of what he speaks, but what we're arguing over is ETAness, not Swissness.

spot on, mate.

 

[tootall]

What surprises me (yet again) is the fact these blanket statements are still being made off the cuff, even after the very topic of this conversation has been discussed here and other rep forums for good number of times in the recent past.

The 'mechanical 6497 movement' has been dissected and evaluated number of times before by experienced real watchmakers (emphasis on REAL WATCHMAKER), being either full Asian or base movement of real ETA origin - we definitelly know one thing for sure - none of the 6497 movt's that power our reps are 100% Swiss made, the closest one to 100% is the movement that Enzo mentioned above, more specifically the 6497 OPII mov't that originally came in gen Panerai Luminiors made between '98-'02. This movement in its rep shape & form has only thin decorative steel plates glued on top of the stock ETA plates.

So, while none of them is 100% ETA in their finish, some of them are definitely are 100% ETA in their origin.

Another good example of original ETA 6497-1 mov't but with lot of Asian cosmetic bits added is the latest OPXI E-series mov't that comes in DSN's latest Fiddy - yes, the add-ons are purely Asian, but the original stock movement underneath is 100% ETA.

Enzo must be getting tired of repeating himself time and time again, and to be honest I'm getting to that stage as well. Although I haven't been in the 'game' as long as Enzo, Ziggy or few others respected members of the comunity, I know what I know, and know what I don't when it comes to all things mech PAM reps.

Take this for what you want, and for what it's worth...but I certainly belong to a group of people that simply don't subscribe to these bold and blanket statements, sorry.

good day to you all,
babola

babola, nice to see you changed your views about the Swiss vs Asian discussion. You must be getting tired of changing your position when proven wrong.

enzo, great explanation. It's basically the same thing I have been saying for a while. I am glad a trusted experienced member like yourself is concurring. http://replica-watch.info/forum/viewtop ... t=davidsen

btw, where is Thumbwa when you need him?

 

[babola]

babola, nice to see you changed your views about the Swiss vs Asian discussion. You must be getting tired of changing your position when proven wrong.

No mate, you got it wrong, I always stated the same, and still am.

You should read my posts a bit more carefuly next time before you launch statement like the one above. [smilie=angryfire.gif]

Maybe my latest post didn't come clear enought to some...so I'll repeat the main point - I agree with Enzo on this matter and disagree with ETA 6497 nayseyers... and if I remember correctly the episode with ThumbWA - you belong to the latter group.

...and when exactly did you prove me wrong ?!

babola

 

[tootall]

No mate, you got it wrong, I always stated the same, and still am.

You should read my posts a bit more carefuly next time before you launch statement like the one above. [smilie=angryfire.gif]

babola

Ok here is your statement:

The movement on TWA's pics is Swiss ETA 6497-1 - full stop!
It's the same one DSN has in his latest 111/177/112 etc H-series watches. How do I know this - because I have the very same one !

I never saw those comparison pictures you were supposed to send. However I did see 4 new 111's from davidsen that had different movements from ThumbWa's. Thumbwa's are Chinese base, Where as Davidsen's are Swiss. But I'll allow you to revise, no problems.

I don't want to keep mucking up vdubpower's thread. If you want to discuss this further through PM I will more than happy.

I'll leave it at what enzo said, and I agree fully.

There are 100% ALL SWISS movements that say PANERAI. Easiest example is ANY SWISS movement with Cosmetic plates. The plates are NOT part of the movement but added to it ... Cosmetic plates are not bridges, but plates ... add plates to a movement does NOT change it's origin!

 

[babola]

No mate, you got it wrong, I always stated the same, and still am.

You should read my posts a bit more carefuly next time before you launch statement like the one above. [smilie=angryfire.gif]

babola

Ok here is your statement:

The movement on TWA's pics is Swiss ETA 6497-1 - full stop!
It's the same one DSN has in his latest 111/177/112 etc H-series watches. How do I know this - because I have the very same one !

I never saw those comparison pictures you were supposed to send. However I did see 4 new 111's from davidsen that had different movements from ThumbWa's. Thumbwa's are Chinese base, Where as Davidsen's are Swiss. But I'll allow you to revise, no problems.

I don't want to keep mucking up vdubpower's thread. If you want to discuss this further through PM I will more than happy.

I'll leave it at what enzo said, and I agree fully.

[quote:2qsja4b6]There are 100% ALL SWISS movements that say PANERAI. Easiest example is ANY SWISS movement with Cosmetic plates. The plates are NOT part of the movement but added to it ... Cosmetic plates are not bridges, but plates ... add plates to a movement does NOT change it's origin!

[/quote:2qsja4b6]


You're just repeating yourself, and I still stand behind the statement I said back then.

And for what Enzo said:

There are 100% ALL SWISS movements that say PANERAI. Easiest example is ANY SWISS movement with Cosmetic plates. The plates are NOT part of the movement but added to it ... Cosmetic plates are not bridges, but plates ... add plates to a movement does NOT change it's origin!

...is pretty much the same I reiterated above:

...the closest one to 100% is the movement that Enzo mentioned above, more specifically the 6497 OPII mov't that originally came in gen Panerai Luminiors made between '98-'02. This movement in its rep shape & form has only thin decorative steel plates glued on top of the stock ETA plates.

Sometimes I'm not sure what your real agend is on this matter...

babola

 

[flavor flav]

i think the bottom line is this... the movements with the old style bridges are even being copied in asia now at a much lower grade, the older bridge pams we used to buy not much more than a year ago were genuine swiss 6497s with thin metel plates glued to them as enzo mentioned.. but right now, today... i think it's a better shot that you are getting a high grade asian movement when you buy a "swiss swanneck" and don't be alarmed, these are very well made and just as reliable as the true swiss 6497s. i think the ones with the balance cock instread of the bridge are mostly phased out of the market as i dont tend to see many of them anymore but i cannot say this for sure. those were a lower grade. with ETA prices in china being through the roof, i really do not think you will get a genuine swiss movement in the swanneck form anymore.. there is a factory in china that has replicated the 2836 movement exactly....exact! only the ETA stamp looks wrong.. other than that 99% people wouldn't know or care... i have a feeling they may end up in our other "swiss" reps sooner than we think.

the original "swiss" swannecks may have had swiss parts but i think not for the last 6-7 months... the asian movements are getting much higher quality.

so when you order your next pam and you go thinking the swiss is the same as the asian......think again.. it's not. the "swiss" whether it's really swiss or not is a much much higher grade movement than the one they call "asian" so do not be alarmed...just aware.