Help Pls! Asian 2836 - Mins & hour hands stop with crown screwed in...

[joby]

Hi All - hoping this is the right place to get some advice on a Noobmariner 16610 of mine with an Asian clone 2836-2 mvmt. It has been like this since new and I've never worn it because I can't trust it.

I know I could get it serviced but I think I'd rather spend that kind of money on 1/3 of a TC Sub TBH. I would quite like to have a go at it, for a bit of fun really, particularly if someone can offer some ideas on the right place to start. I also have an identical movement from another Noobmariner which was dropped so I could possibly take some parts from that if I'm lucky.

It will run 100% fine with the crown in the winding position, but once the crown is screwed down the minute and hour hands will stop within about 30 mins or so. Can't see a pattern as to where they stop. Seconds hand keep on running though which seems the oddest thing. I have tried leaving the crown unscrewed slightly by 1 full turn but this seems to make no difference. Date set works fine, winds fine, hacks fine. Time set works pretty much normally, only that I can feel some resistance/hear some clicks when going anti-clockwise which I don't think is normal. Sometimes I can get it going again by giving the back a sharp tap with my hand.

I read a thread on here about the possibility that the stem was too long, so swapped the stem and crown from the broken Noobmariner which was slightly shorter. This made no difference, and I can see no sign of the movement shifting at all when pushing in and screwing the crown, which seems to say that this isn't the issue. The mvmt seemed not quite straight (gap between dial and case on crown side) so I have uncased the mvmt and straightened it up nicely - this made no difference either.

I was thinking about starting with Keyless works rebuild but don't want to waste time in case that's not where I should be looking! Be interested in any ideas from you knowledgeable folks. TIA

 

[Raddave]

Sounds like the cannon pinion might be a little loose.

Its not really hard to adjust, but takes a light touch, and very easy to damage while adjusting.
What you might try doing, is swapping the minute wheel from the other movement onto this unit, as the cannon pinion is part of the minute wheel.

 

[joby]

Many thanks for that - sounds like it could be worth a go. So using the reference here - http://www.tztoolshop.com/page74.html - we are talking about part 260 correct? And the dial side is the best way to go in by the looks for that part? Is that a good reference for me to know which bits to remove in what order or is there something better I can use as a reference would you know?

Out of interest re the crown in/out difference - what difference would it be making to the cannon pinion when the crown is screwed down? I assume maybe it is adding some addition resistance somewhere? TIA!

 

[Raddave]

Negative sir, we are talking about part number 242. Perhaps i called it the wrong name. The minute hand actually mounts on the tube on part 242, that tube is actually a clutch of sorts which is driven by a shaft which goes through the center of it.

And you are correct, youll need to go in from the dial side. Youll need to remove the date wheel, then the keyless cover (also called the minute cock, number 462).

Then youll need to remove the hourwheel (number 255), which just slips over the 242, the keyless cover just holds it in place.

At this point you can remove the cannon pinion, there is a special tool to remove it, looks like a hands removel tool, or a hands removel tool will also work. the way I do it is i use a good pair of fine tweezers, and grab the cannon pinion about 1/2 inch in on the tweezers rest a penny on the movmeent and lever against the penny, the penny protects the movment from damage.

When you go to replace it you will feel some resistance and it will snap into place, doesnt take a whole lot of pressure but it does take some.

And you are right about the crown being screwed in, the spring pressure from the crown spring is pushing on the stem and putting a little more resistance on the movement, with a worn or loose cannon pinion, it might just be a little to much to keep funtioning properly.

 

[joby]

Thanks very much for your help with this Dave. OK, so I am following this but confused by the reference to part 270 - by the looks of it you are actually meaning part 242 (Cannon pinion with driver) - If that's the case then I think I can have a go at this as it does not sound like it involves removing too many parts. I have a hand removal tool so can try that option for removing the cannon pinion. If you could spare the time to confirm then I will report back when I have tried it....

 

[Raddave]

Yes sir, thats the part youll be removing. part number 242

I appologize about giving you the wrong number, i had been awake all night (i work night shift) and had multiple charts open, (and i guess a decent brain fart)

Ive corrected my above post.

Here is a vid of someone removing the cannon pinion off a different movement.

Bear in mind that while you part looks different,(your part will have a extra gear pressed on the end of your cannon pinion, which you will leave intact and not remove), the actuall removal and reinstallation will be the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcOpKi2wKN4


Good luck !

 

[joby]

Thanks Dave - not to worry - really appreciate the advice. I just need to find myself an hour or 2 of quiet time now to give this a go. Will be sure to post back with results...

 

[joby]

So - I finally managed to get time yesterday to give this a go. I followed the above instructions, which were a great start, but I had to remove a few extra bits and bobs (260 & 2595 & 2543) to get at part 242. Also I found that there was no resistance or click when removing and replacing the cannon pinion 242 on both movements - it just lifted off/on - maybe a difference between clone and gen ETA?

So I removed the part 242 from both movements and swapped the one from the broken movement (the part itself looked fine) into the movement with the issue. Put everything back together again pretty nicely I think - was my first time removing hands and dial on a watch that I was actually intending to put back together again!
Bad news is I still have the same problem :frusty: I did enjoy it though - and at least I'm no worse off!

Any more ideas? I may attempt a complete strip/rebuild of the broken movement to see if I can isolate the issue there and then see if I can get that working any better than the movement that stops....

 

[Raddave]

That is odd.

Ive never had a cannon pinion have no resistance going on or coming off.

Your center wheel might be damaged.

http://people.timezone.com/library/horologium/horologium0039

Ive heard of watch makers threading a human hair into the cannon pinion to give it more resistance


http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?64703-Broken-Cannon-Pinion&p=481193&viewfull=1#post481193

You might want to give that a try.

 

[Watchill]

Hi Joby, I have the same problem with my Omega LMPO With A2824-2 movement. After moving the hands now back and forth several times with crown on 2. position, the watch runs fine now since several hours. Is it possible that the gears are somehow unclean?

 

[joby]

Thanks Dave - both the movements were the same - that part just lifted off with no resistance - maybe we are at cross purposes but I think I am getting the right part. I know the broken movement was running fine before it was dropped so it seems to me that that the cannon pinion may not be the issue if I've swapped it and no change. When I get some time I am going to rebuild the dropped movement and see whether that is any better than this duff movement - I can definitely see that the keyless works need rebuilding - that may be all that tis one needs to get it going properly again.

Sorry Watchill but I don't know on that one - we may have the same issue but I don't know what mine is yet!

 

[Raddave]

Well joby, the cannon pinion HAS to have some resitance to work properly. Its the clutch that drives the minutes and hour hands.
I can understand your reluctance to accept this since both movements were the same. Try the hair trick, what you got to loose, if it doesnt work, its totally reversable.


I wish you the best of luck.


Keep on plugging at it, im sure you will find something out

And keep us posted, as i am curious as to your findings.

 

[lofi]

you'll have to take a look at the gear train. part #210. its a common problem I come across where the gear seperates from the pin. the gear turns thru and powers the seconds but doesn't spin the pin for #240. occasionally it will happen cause #203 is chipped, broken or bent or the keyless is incorrect and jams up #260 which will do it too. I usually replace all 4 when I do this service. hr, min, sec, and escape.

http://www.tztoolshop.com/page73.html

good luck.

 

[joby]

Thanks lofi - very helpful - sorry it took me a while to spot your reply. I will have a look at swapping that part out also. Will let you know how I get on...

 

[joby]

Just to keep anyone interested (if there is anyone!) up to date with this I eventually had a bit of time last night to work on this continuing saga:-

With lofi's advice I set about getting the #210 out, and swapped it with the spare one I had. On putting it all back together I could feel that something wasn't right and the gear train was not engaging or running freely. After a lot of messing about, I realised that one of the jewels / bearings on the gear train was missing (the one supporting #210). Hence this probably was my problem all along, that once the crown was giving some resistance, #210 was slipping and disengaging from the seconds, hence the hours and minutes were stopping.

Somehow with all the messing about I managed to mess up the mainspring on this movement and detach it so I figured I would give up on that one and see if I could find out what was wrong with my other broken donor movement. I used this fantastic video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtgAJBPPefM - and set about doing a complete strip down, which was very interesting and pretty easy to do following the advice - I left one or two bits intact that I could see were OK, or like the date mech which I had already removed and replaced previously.

I couldn't find any obvious issues, and got to the point of putting back together, when again I had problems with the gear train, and again I noticed that I had a missing jewel in the train bridge - this time the one for the escape. I tried (rather roughly) removing a jewel to see if I could swap them but this clearly wasn't going to work!

I am pretty confident that this movement has no other major problems, so I have ordered a new train bridge and some oil from cousins and I'm going to try and get this baby working again....if that won't work I think I'll give in and buy another movement.

All good fun though thanks again for all the help raddave and lofi!

 

[Raddave]

You can see why it is so hard too diagnose via the internet.

These little machines are actually quite complex.

Great job on the problem solving and gumption to keep trying !


Dont quit until you have that baby running !

 

[joby]

Cheers Dave :thumbsup:

Will keep you posted....

 

[joby]

Well I got there eventually - with the new gen ETA train bridge I managed to build a working movement from the 2 duff ones. Seems to be running really nicely too

Frustrating at times, but I learnt a lot and it's great to have the confidence to get stuck in again in future if need be....

 

[Raddave]

Its a great feeling isnt it !

Congrats or your first repair !

Great job