Help me choose my first panerai

[Sultan Brunei]

Hello,

Straight to the point,
After reading and gaining some information regarding rep PAMs,
I decided to have a pick between these two working PR models:


(A) Dsn PAM 057c with so called "gen ETA 2892 movt + sopord power reserve"
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/new-born-057c-99719

OR


(B) Mark Timeshops PAM 124 with "Asian 21j movt with working power reserve"
http://timeshops.net/11623-xfpa2930-pam124-luminor-automatic-power-reserve-black-dial-ss-lt-asian-21j-automatic.html

Now, everyone knows that (A) is more than 4 times price of (B).
I know that it's not fair to compare prices of rep with "gen" ETA movement and rep with asian movement.



HOWEVER, as both of it were still a rep anyway.
I wanted to measure those big difference in price that I had to pay, how worthy or not worthy it is to me, and I begin to think,


1. What was the proven advantage of choosing "gen ETA 2892 movt + sopord power reserve" over a21j ?

• Real genuineness of gen eta is questionable
• I've heard that there are no more gen eta actually goes around new watches, unless it is a REFURBISHED/REASSEMBLED gen eta
• Some said choosing asian clone eta over "gen" eta is better because at least you knew it was a new unit.
• Both movements do have working power reserve

2. Was the case, dial, bezel, caseback, etc etc quality of (A) & (B) different or the same (only different movement.) ?

• Since I don't have experience in owning a lot of reps from multiple price points, I don't have the knowledge to answer this question
• I need an answer from someone who has had a lot of reps from different price points and are experienced enough to examine
• Whether chinese watch dealers (by historical) that sells two item same model in two different price point, only differs them by movement is still a mystery to me.
  
  

3. Would someone with expertise in PAMs help me identify and analyze in detail how DSN's PAM is better than timeshop's (beside movement) ?




I owned two reps before this, both have died after 3-4 months of usage. I threw them to my garbage bin. First is rolex air king, second is rolex milgauss. Both were asian/chinese/japan movement I think. I didn't knew exactly what it was. I just didn't want that to happen again. Well, I also didn't expect a rep to last a lifetime just like my gen watches! But for 3-4 months thats horrible!



Thank you so much RWI forum :wub:

 

[Rogerthat]

Hard for me to recommend either when there are some many better reps out there if you don't need the power reserve feature
To me the movement doesn't matter if the crystal, cg and lume are not as good

 

[Ruski91]

hey OP, i have a PAM090 with 21J working power reserve. Up until i found this forum i was perfectly happy with it. And then all hell broke loose.

I started reading and noticing all of the flaws that my watch had, i was so disappointed. to add insult to injury my brother in law picked up a Gen 090 and the differences were just ridiculous.

From what i understand after reading ales guide, the DSN with gen ETA 2892 movt + sopord power reserve is a far superior movement if and only if working PR is a mandatory feature for you. if not just about any TD can source a PR model with A7750 movement with a faux power reserve. These models are considered good reps but not super as the PR is faux.

If I am not mistaken, the PAM gurus have ruled the DSM sopprod models as super-reps. From what I understand this is the movement that is used by the gens. The price is clearly the biggest difference. You can only decide for yourself if it is the right move paying so much for a rep. That being said, the soprod movement will certainly be superior in quality and will last you much longer.

Its clear that you have done some research on this issue and I hope this helps you make up your mind, best of luck with your upcoming purchase!

 

[Sultan Brunei]

Hard for me to recommend either when there are some many better reps out there if you don't need the power reserve feature
To me the movement doesn't matter if the crystal, cg and lume are not as good

I do need the working power reserve feature, at least to make it harder for skeptics to think that it was only a rep.

To be honest, in the retail world out there, I can say reps with working power reserve were scarce to none. Except one or two dealers here in this forum who sells it.

I don't know though... whether this kind of thinking is a rightful way of thinking. Still trying to figure out before the final decision.
Btw, are you saying that both of my choices have flaws in crystal, cg, lume, etc?

 

[Ruski91]

I do need the working power reserve feature, at least to make it harder for skeptics to think that it was only a rep.

To be honest, in the retail world out there, I can say reps with working power reserve were scarce to none. Except one or two dealers here in this forum who sells it.

I don't know though... whether this kind of thinking is a rightful way of thinking. Still trying to figure out before the final decision.
Btw, are you saying that both of my choices have flaws in crystal, cg, lume, etc?

Ok im in the same boat, i want a working power reserve with good movement, in this case the only option for good movement is DSN's Soprod.

In regards to the flaws you mentioned, the only thing i would say is that is a common concept on here that the latest cases, crown guards, etc from Noob Factory and H-Maker are the best available. DSN's models are additional alternatives. This is just something you have to consider.

Take a look at this thread:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/pcteam-modified-dsn-114217?p=1119547

One of the well known modders did a review of his modification to the DSN model and explained what the flaws were.

Overall you have to understand that a rep is a rep no matter how you twist it. There will always be some kind of flaw (Perhaps on a microscopic level but still there) The PAM057 is a fairly rare model, and i doubt you would ever encounter someone who knows the intricacies of this model that they would be able to catch it with the naked eye. I think that the DSN models are the best possible choice for a proper functioning PR model. I only say this because i recently asked for some advice on my PAM090 and this is what I was told by the PAM gurus here at the forum.

 

[Rogerthat]

I would not recommend currently other than a model introduced within the past 12 - 18 months by either noob or h factory

What I meant was the best reps are not reps of power reserve models
Not referring to the function working or not
Yes other models from noob or h factory i believe will have better crystal, cg and lume
If DSN has updated this watch maybe it is better than I am thinking
The other watch I would not expect much .

 

[mysterio]

I would recommend the PAM 057. It is the only Soprod equipped rep classified as a super rep in ALE's guide (the others are only first class rep). The other one, meh.

 

[smokiedabong]

If you want a good rep and also good watch get one that's considered super rep in Ale's guide. Examples of good super reps: 111 V3 noob and 243 V2 noob, the build quality and finish of these is just amazing, seeing them in real life it's hard to believe they are not gens. On the ones that you choose the finish quality and component fitment is just not good enough for a gen, anyone who takes a look at them can tell that.

 

[ALE7575]

Hi Sultan

Firstly congrats for this well structured and written post.
Unfortunately, we are in a rep world, there are no fixed rules, there are no fixed standards, no fi¡xed specifications, no complete guarantess...And mainly there are no always absolute answers to your questions.

You are talking about two different watches.
1- Fitted with a Gen Soprod modified movement (Knowing DSN mnufactures we can guarantee it), with AR, magnificent textured dial, and made of Titanium

2- Fitted with a cheap movement, without AR, made of SS.

As above said from Davidsen you can trust you will receive a gen Soprod.
The price is justified only for above mentined. But, this prices worth for you? this is a personal question and cannot be asnwered by others.

Threfore I would bought a DSN PAM 057 without doubts. A really beautiful watch.
Besides you are searching for last in the time, and that doesn't occur with an A21

ALE

 

[Sultan Brunei]

If you want a good rep and also good watch get one that's considered super rep in Ale's guide. Examples of good super reps: 111 V3 noob and 243 V2 noob, the build quality and finish of these is just amazing, seeing them in real life it's hard to believe they are not gens.

Weren't DSN 57c a super reps, too ?

On the ones that you choose the finish quality and component fitment is just not good enough for a gen, anyone who takes a look at them can tell that.

Do you have personal experience with dsn 57c ?
Would you tell me in details, how do I make judgment of "good" finish quality and "not so good" finish quality? What to look at ? Softness? Colour?
And how about what to look at component fitment? What makes dsn's version differs than gen?



thank you so much

 

[Fiddo]

The 57 from DSN is a very nice watch with a very nice movement. If the price does not bother you, go for it.

 

[Sultan Brunei]

Hi Sultan

Firstly congrats for this well structured and written post.
Unfortunately, we are in a rep world, there are no fixed rules, there are no fixed standards, no fi¡xed specifications, no complete guarantess...And mainly there are no always absolute answers to your questions.

You are talking about two different watches.
1- Fitted with a Gen Soprod modified movement (Knowing DSN mnufactures we can guarantee it), with AR, magnificent textured dial, and made of Titanium

2- Fitted with a cheap movement, without AR, made of SS.

As above said from Davidsen you can trust you will receive a gen Soprod.
The price is justified only for above mentined. But, this prices worth for you? this is a personal question and cannot be asnwered by others.

Threfore I would bought a DSN PAM 057 without doubts. A really beautiful watch.
Besides you are searching for last in the time, and that doesn't occur with an A21

ALE

details specs as follows
-44mm Real Titanium case,crown gurad and crown.
-NON AR sapphire with up 6mm cylop
-Genuine ETA 2892 auto movt with bulit in Sopord Power reserve
-up graded and re printed calender date wheel with Bolder Font
-c1 + c3 lumed chocolate dark brown hobnail dial with RECESSED Power reserve scale
-matching lumed hands + fish shape shape power reserve indicator lumed hand
-solid titanium case cack
-3ATM Water Resist Tested
-24mm black or brown leather strap with matcing titanium buckle

• So this is a REAL ALL TITANIUM CASE, not titanium plated case like other titanium based pam in the market ?
• You mention, dsn version with ar, but in dsn description, he mentions it NON AR ?
• Is it better for me to use with ar, or without ar for dsn version?
• What about smokiedabong mentioning, dsn 57c finish quality and component fitment is not good enough ? is it true?
• I saw a review of dsn 57c and the guy said there are some issues with it, mainly CG, DSN CG is flat. I don't know. Is this true? Should I fix and change by myself if I were to buy this model? And then, there comes the lume issue, he said it was too weak for a C-series. This would mean I should do a relume job too, then?
• If I read at the specs DSN provided, it was c1+c3 lumed, so does a c1+c3 lume is still considered weak, or there are possibility that when the review guy bought the watch, his version was not a c1+c3 lumed version?
• What do you mean with "last in the time" ?

thank you for helping me find my dream panerai

 

[mysterio]

Sultan, read the guide. What you are looking for is there, reviews have been posted so you can see other people's comments on the rep.

 

[Rogerthat]

Too many questions without researching first to answer entirely all your questions
This is a rare model both rep and gen so there is not a huge pool of expert owners to answer

This DSN is expensive because of the movement
The movement is needed to make this model look accurate
Other gen models use more basic movements/functions and therefore can be replicated better for far less money

I will tell you this assuming you don't know
You are buying a brand new rep of a old gen over 10 years old
So if yours looks brand new that is kind if suspicious

 

[Sultan Brunei]

Sultan, read the guide. What you are looking for is there, reviews have been posted so you can see other people's comments on the rep.

fyi, I've read all the guide both at rwi and other related forums. Yes, I've gain a lot of understanding on the subjects. However, since I have to pay a premium for the product I am looking to acquire, what I am looking for is a detailed answer that only experts or those who have had this watch will ever knew, So that I can gain my own version of confidence on it.

and btw, thanks for replying.. cheers

 

[Rogerthat]

My opinion is noob and h factory's newest releases are better quality
Again you are paying a high price for a high quality movement it doesn't mean the other aspects of the watch will be any better than other reps costing less

If you love the power reserve on the dial, get the DSN version
I just don't understand your bizarre logic that because of this feature it will seem more gen like to others than a more basic Pam model rep would

Last comments I will make as I have no desire to say bad things about DSN who by all accounts is a great and honest guy and has been around this hobby much longer than I

 

[MMs]

buy a 111 noob V3, get a nice strap for it, profit.

 

[Sultan Brunei]

I will tell you this assuming you don't know
You are buying a brand new rep of a old gen over 10 years old
So if yours looks brand new that is kind if suspicious

That's a good thought! I knew it was from year 98-00. And I didn't think through that a brand new look for year '00 watch would make it look suspicious.. lol. TRUE.

buy a 111 noob V3, get a nice strap for it, profit.

How long can it last before another manual wind? I rather hate manual winding because I had to wind them every morning
Any automatic super reps you recommend with good movement and overall quality?

 

[Rogerthat]

Manual winds typically last 40-50 hours
No need to wind every morning, but every couple of days yes

Auto options of the best of the best Pam reps
029 v2 noob
243 v2 noob
288 from h

Some others slightly further down to look at 164 for either h or noob, 088 from h, 104 and I am sure there are others as well
I prefer manual wind Pams personally but they take time to get used to and appreciate the more simple look

 

[MMs]

Manual winds typically last 40-50 hours
No need to wind every morning, but every couple of days yes

Auto options of the best of the best Pam reps
029 v2 noob
243 v2 noob
288 from h

^this.

the 243M from noob factory, version 2 is a good sub
the 029M from noob factory is a very classy GMT
the 288k with the 7750 movement is a very nice chrono rad

but don't forget about the daylights, they're epic.

251K is the white dial and the 236K I think is the black one.
I have a 251K and I'll never sell it. They have an A7753 engine