First posted 2011....I think
First, the name 21j is just a generic name we all made up to broadly ID a chinese automatic movement. Also, the name DG2813 is generically used for a 21j engined watch BUT have NO illusions. The real Dixmont-Guangzhou 2813 is IMO THE BEST Chinese automatic made today. I have several that are work horses. There are some Chinese Auto's that are junk and some that are bad ass, period.
The real DG2813 is really, as I see it, a clone of the Miyota 8215...Wiz told me this some time ago.
Read and take notes people. As you can see, I did
Known Chinese Movement makers
Tianjin Yinnge 2130
Hangzhou 6300 (21j)
Liaoning-7750 automatic chronograph
Shanghai 3LFZ2 a7750 (IMO the best Chinese automatic chronograph
Nanning 21j..the automatic chronograph used in warranty, mainstream Chinese Chronograph watches.
Dixmont-Guagzhou-2813 (21j) IMO the best Chinese 21j..the REAL DG not the generic name DG2813. There is a difference
Seagull ST16 21j
Seagull ST19 manual chronograph
Dixmont-Guangzhou 2813 (also known as a 21j)
Seagull ST16-(21j)
Tianjin Yinnge 2130
Hangzhou (21j)
Nanning NNFB2913 (21j)
Shanghai 3LZF2 a7750
Liaoning
(Other chrono makers models and variants
Japanese:
Seiko Spring drive Chrono movement (which are in Ananta or GS)
Seiko Auto Chrono movements (8R28)
Germans make the auto chronos as well:
GO 39-31
GO 95
GO 96-01 (flyback chrono)
Lange double split chrono L001.1
Lange flyback chrono L951.5)
This guy is amazing right here WUS*User: lysanderxiii
All we ever need to know about auto movements Chinese
http://forums.watchuseek.com/search.php?searchid=8206603
Seagulls-1901
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/another-inside-look-seagull-1901-a-225110.html
http://www.prometheuswatch.com/how-...-prometheus-watch-company-and-watch-industry/
Clones vs. ETA pomparo The 2824-2
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/how-do-seagull-hangzhou-compare-eta-depth-look-216945.html
Chinese 7750
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/chinese-7750-a-220837.html
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/7750-dissected-lots-pix-215335.html
Dixmont-Guangzhou
Guangzhou
1963-auto SG-4, date version SG-5 similar to Seagull ST6)
Dixmont-started in 1990s
Today, DG28/38 is the flagship Miyota 8500 clone
DG48 is an ETA 2824 clone
DG69 revised clone of the 2892
wiki-http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Dixmont_Guangzhou_Watch_Company
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/identify-chinese-movement-435764.html
So what is the base movement for the Shanghai B? (ha ha, ask question to oneself, look it up on wiki, get answer *)
Shanghai B- Developmnt of
"In 1982, the Shanghai Number 4 Watch Factory entered into a joint venture with the Shanghai Watch Factory to develop a new wristwatch movement to replace the ZuanShi SM1A and Shanghai ZSH (STANDARD MOV'T). As it happened, the ZSH was never replaced. The prototype series was designated SBS, and was characterized by a very thin design of simple construction and large balance wheel. An automatic version was also planned. Test batches of the SBS1B calendar hand-wind and SBS3 very thin watch were released to market in 1984, alongside the equivalent Shanghai SS8.
The full production ZuanShi SB1Z (date) and SB1ZB (day/date) versions were release in 1985. These early versions may be destinguished by a prominent, stylized B engraved on the movement. The day/date automatic SB1ZZ followed in later years. Curiously, although thinness was an important characteristic of the SBS design, the automatic module is reasonably bulky.*
Although Shanghai ZuanShi is now just a memory, the B calibre developed jointly with the Shanghai Watch Factory lives on in a proliferation of variants produced by Shanghai and used in both their own watches and sold to other watch companies. There are triple-calendars, dual-time, 24-hour, moon-phase. The most commonly seen in recent times is the GMT version, found in watches under the brands of Alpha, Aeromatic, Tauchmeister and many others."
The 3 questions I have, 1) How standardised is the chinese parts? eg If you had 10 of the seagulls, could you swap parts with each of them without problems or huge variations?
2) Are they actually made from proper steel, or are they made from ceramics like miyotas?*
the reason I'm wondering, a friend told me In china, they test the movements. The ones that fail or are lousy are sold in the replica market. The better ones they use for themselves or the export market.
The counterfeit market has poor reliability, due to the simple fact that they have extremely poor quality assurance (again "cost of quality" discussion). These people are looking to turn high profits, therefore have dirty (ie not a clean-room type workshop, not that three week old food in in the corner of the workshop) assembly areas, don't take care to keep fingers and dust out of the case and other things that result in high infant mortality.
Movement manufacturers don't really care what your putting their movement in, I have seen real ETAs in Omega counterfiets.
3) The Rado was from the 1980s as far as I know. Not any better, and certainly no worse than current offering from ETA.
a7750 Issue
I am unsure where I copy & pasted this from but the *Seagull modded seconds to 6" movement is not something I have encountered or read about. The earliest clone 7750's with a multi gear added transfer gearing mechanism to transfer the seconds from sec @ 9 (Vakjoux 7750's natural design) to a second @ 6 7750 was what I think was a Liaoning a7750. Thanks to _________ for the edit nod.
*(I just wondered because this isn't the first instance of unlubricated Sea Gull movements I've read about. A recent investigation into a Chinese chrono with the additional sub dial at the 6 o'clock position found the movement to be devoid of oil except for the balance. In that instance it was apparently done on purpose to reduce friction on the additional parts and allow the watch to keep running.)
When one almost triples the number of gears in any mechanical device, one of two things is going to have to happen, 1) the power input will have to be increased, or 2) the drag due too friction will have to be reduced. The "el premero" 7750 (not to be confuse with the standard 7753 style layout[1]) simply runs the base movement at very nearly it maximum capacity.
1. There are two different horizontal tri-compax automatic chronographs based on the 7750 available from China. One has the El Premero lay out with the running seconds at 6, and the minute and hour counters at 9 and 3 respectively. The other has the same layout as the base 7750, except the minute counter is moved to the 3 position; and unlike the ETA/Valjoux 7753, which shares the dial layout, the Chinese version manages to keep the quick set date function, big plus. This movement is the one to get if you need a horizontal tri-compax automatic chronograph.
Oil-To Much to little
On another subject broached here, oiling, or lack of, I have been thinking. A well made movement, sent out from the factory bone dry will probably last 10 to 15 years of constant use before wear will disable it. But, not oiling reduces the likelihood of over-oiling problems which would usually lead to returns.
So, by purposely neglecting to oil the movements is a wise business choice, as these movements are not intended to be heirlooms and passed from generation to generation, but neat little fashion accessories (that tell time) and are replaced when the owner becomes bored with it, or something else catches their eye.
To continue with our Swiss Made Watch Collection there are alternatives in market that start to appear, mainly
Sellita – a Swiss company with its SW200, SW220 movements clones of the ETA 2824-2 and ETA 2836-2 (however Sellita production line is fully overbooked, though some movements are available via movement brokers but at random times and scarce quantities)
Soprod – a Swiss company with its A10 movement which is a movement built to replace the ETA 2892-A2 with improved specs (delivery times of over 12 months time and premium pricing)
Valanvron – a Swiss company that is a relatively newcomer to industry (established in 2010) that has in its portfolio the VAL24, VAL36 and VAL92 movements that are clones of the ETA 2824-2, ETA 2836-2 and ETA 2892-A2 movements. They base their movements in ebauches from Seagull with many components replaced in Switzerland for Swiss ones and complete assembly of movement made in Switzerland.
In Asia there are also alternatives available mainly:
Hangzhou – a Chinese company dedicated exclusively to produce mechanical movements to third parties. Their most looked for movements are the ETA 2824-2, ETA 2836-2, Unitas 6497 and 6498 clone movements.
Miyota – a Japanese company dedicated exclusively to produce mechanical movements to its group and third parties. Their most looked for movements are the Miyota 8215, 8205, 9015 movements (though it is hard to have access to their 9015 movement though some movements are available via movement brokers but at random times and scarce quantities)
Seagull – a Chinese fully integrated watch manufacturer that produces complete watches and sells to third parties multitude of mechanical movements being the most looked for its ETA 2824-2, ETA 2836-2, ETA 2892, Unitas 6497 and 6498 clone movements.
Shanghai – a Chinese fully integrated watch manufacturer that produces complete watches and sells to third parties multitude of mechanical movements being the most looked for its ETA 7750 clone movement
Time Module Seiko – a Japanese company dedicated exclusively to produce mechanical movements to its group and third parties. Their most looked for movements are the Seiko Time Module NE15 (Seiko 6R15), Seiko Time Module NH35 (Seiko 4R35) and Seiko Time Module NH36 (Seiko 4R36) movement (though it is hard to have access to their movements with lead times of around 12 months though at times available from movement brokers with scarce quantities)
First, the name 21j is just a generic name we all made up to broadly ID a chinese automatic movement. Also, the name DG2813 is generically used for a 21j engined watch BUT have NO illusions. The real Dixmont-Guangzhou 2813 is IMO THE BEST Chinese automatic made today. I have several that are work horses. There are some Chinese Auto's that are junk and some that are bad ass, period.
The real DG2813 is really, as I see it, a clone of the Miyota 8215...Wiz told me this some time ago.
Read and take notes people. As you can see, I did
Known Chinese Movement makers
Tianjin Yinnge 2130
Hangzhou 6300 (21j)
Liaoning-7750 automatic chronograph
Shanghai 3LFZ2 a7750 (IMO the best Chinese automatic chronograph
Nanning 21j..the automatic chronograph used in warranty, mainstream Chinese Chronograph watches.
Dixmont-Guagzhou-2813 (21j) IMO the best Chinese 21j..the REAL DG not the generic name DG2813. There is a difference
Seagull ST16 21j
Seagull ST19 manual chronograph
Dixmont-Guangzhou 2813 (also known as a 21j)
Seagull ST16-(21j)
Tianjin Yinnge 2130
Hangzhou (21j)
Nanning NNFB2913 (21j)
Shanghai 3LZF2 a7750
Liaoning
(Other chrono makers models and variants
Japanese:
Seiko Spring drive Chrono movement (which are in Ananta or GS)
Seiko Auto Chrono movements (8R28)
Germans make the auto chronos as well:
GO 39-31
GO 95
GO 96-01 (flyback chrono)
Lange double split chrono L001.1
Lange flyback chrono L951.5)
This guy is amazing right here WUS*User: lysanderxiii
All we ever need to know about auto movements Chinese
http://forums.watchuseek.com/search.php?searchid=8206603
Seagulls-1901
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/another-inside-look-seagull-1901-a-225110.html
http://www.prometheuswatch.com/how-...-prometheus-watch-company-and-watch-industry/
Clones vs. ETA pomparo The 2824-2
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/how-do-seagull-hangzhou-compare-eta-depth-look-216945.html
Chinese 7750
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/chinese-7750-a-220837.html
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/7750-dissected-lots-pix-215335.html
Dixmont-Guangzhou
Guangzhou
1963-auto SG-4, date version SG-5 similar to Seagull ST6)
Dixmont-started in 1990s
Today, DG28/38 is the flagship Miyota 8500 clone
DG48 is an ETA 2824 clone
DG69 revised clone of the 2892
wiki-http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Dixmont_Guangzhou_Watch_Company
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/identify-chinese-movement-435764.html
So what is the base movement for the Shanghai B? (ha ha, ask question to oneself, look it up on wiki, get answer *)
Shanghai B- Developmnt of
"In 1982, the Shanghai Number 4 Watch Factory entered into a joint venture with the Shanghai Watch Factory to develop a new wristwatch movement to replace the ZuanShi SM1A and Shanghai ZSH (STANDARD MOV'T). As it happened, the ZSH was never replaced. The prototype series was designated SBS, and was characterized by a very thin design of simple construction and large balance wheel. An automatic version was also planned. Test batches of the SBS1B calendar hand-wind and SBS3 very thin watch were released to market in 1984, alongside the equivalent Shanghai SS8.
The full production ZuanShi SB1Z (date) and SB1ZB (day/date) versions were release in 1985. These early versions may be destinguished by a prominent, stylized B engraved on the movement. The day/date automatic SB1ZZ followed in later years. Curiously, although thinness was an important characteristic of the SBS design, the automatic module is reasonably bulky.*
Although Shanghai ZuanShi is now just a memory, the B calibre developed jointly with the Shanghai Watch Factory lives on in a proliferation of variants produced by Shanghai and used in both their own watches and sold to other watch companies. There are triple-calendars, dual-time, 24-hour, moon-phase. The most commonly seen in recent times is the GMT version, found in watches under the brands of Alpha, Aeromatic, Tauchmeister and many others."
The 3 questions I have, 1) How standardised is the chinese parts? eg If you had 10 of the seagulls, could you swap parts with each of them without problems or huge variations?
2) Are they actually made from proper steel, or are they made from ceramics like miyotas?*
the reason I'm wondering, a friend told me In china, they test the movements. The ones that fail or are lousy are sold in the replica market. The better ones they use for themselves or the export market.
The counterfeit market has poor reliability, due to the simple fact that they have extremely poor quality assurance (again "cost of quality" discussion). These people are looking to turn high profits, therefore have dirty (ie not a clean-room type workshop, not that three week old food in in the corner of the workshop) assembly areas, don't take care to keep fingers and dust out of the case and other things that result in high infant mortality.
Movement manufacturers don't really care what your putting their movement in, I have seen real ETAs in Omega counterfiets.
3) The Rado was from the 1980s as far as I know. Not any better, and certainly no worse than current offering from ETA.
a7750 Issue
I am unsure where I copy & pasted this from but the *Seagull modded seconds to 6" movement is not something I have encountered or read about. The earliest clone 7750's with a multi gear added transfer gearing mechanism to transfer the seconds from sec @ 9 (Vakjoux 7750's natural design) to a second @ 6 7750 was what I think was a Liaoning a7750. Thanks to _________ for the edit nod.
*(I just wondered because this isn't the first instance of unlubricated Sea Gull movements I've read about. A recent investigation into a Chinese chrono with the additional sub dial at the 6 o'clock position found the movement to be devoid of oil except for the balance. In that instance it was apparently done on purpose to reduce friction on the additional parts and allow the watch to keep running.)
When one almost triples the number of gears in any mechanical device, one of two things is going to have to happen, 1) the power input will have to be increased, or 2) the drag due too friction will have to be reduced. The "el premero" 7750 (not to be confuse with the standard 7753 style layout[1]) simply runs the base movement at very nearly it maximum capacity.
1. There are two different horizontal tri-compax automatic chronographs based on the 7750 available from China. One has the El Premero lay out with the running seconds at 6, and the minute and hour counters at 9 and 3 respectively. The other has the same layout as the base 7750, except the minute counter is moved to the 3 position; and unlike the ETA/Valjoux 7753, which shares the dial layout, the Chinese version manages to keep the quick set date function, big plus. This movement is the one to get if you need a horizontal tri-compax automatic chronograph.
Oil-To Much to little
On another subject broached here, oiling, or lack of, I have been thinking. A well made movement, sent out from the factory bone dry will probably last 10 to 15 years of constant use before wear will disable it. But, not oiling reduces the likelihood of over-oiling problems which would usually lead to returns.
So, by purposely neglecting to oil the movements is a wise business choice, as these movements are not intended to be heirlooms and passed from generation to generation, but neat little fashion accessories (that tell time) and are replaced when the owner becomes bored with it, or something else catches their eye.
To continue with our Swiss Made Watch Collection there are alternatives in market that start to appear, mainly
Sellita – a Swiss company with its SW200, SW220 movements clones of the ETA 2824-2 and ETA 2836-2 (however Sellita production line is fully overbooked, though some movements are available via movement brokers but at random times and scarce quantities)
Soprod – a Swiss company with its A10 movement which is a movement built to replace the ETA 2892-A2 with improved specs (delivery times of over 12 months time and premium pricing)
Valanvron – a Swiss company that is a relatively newcomer to industry (established in 2010) that has in its portfolio the VAL24, VAL36 and VAL92 movements that are clones of the ETA 2824-2, ETA 2836-2 and ETA 2892-A2 movements. They base their movements in ebauches from Seagull with many components replaced in Switzerland for Swiss ones and complete assembly of movement made in Switzerland.
In Asia there are also alternatives available mainly:
Hangzhou – a Chinese company dedicated exclusively to produce mechanical movements to third parties. Their most looked for movements are the ETA 2824-2, ETA 2836-2, Unitas 6497 and 6498 clone movements.
Miyota – a Japanese company dedicated exclusively to produce mechanical movements to its group and third parties. Their most looked for movements are the Miyota 8215, 8205, 9015 movements (though it is hard to have access to their 9015 movement though some movements are available via movement brokers but at random times and scarce quantities)
Seagull – a Chinese fully integrated watch manufacturer that produces complete watches and sells to third parties multitude of mechanical movements being the most looked for its ETA 2824-2, ETA 2836-2, ETA 2892, Unitas 6497 and 6498 clone movements.
Shanghai – a Chinese fully integrated watch manufacturer that produces complete watches and sells to third parties multitude of mechanical movements being the most looked for its ETA 7750 clone movement
Time Module Seiko – a Japanese company dedicated exclusively to produce mechanical movements to its group and third parties. Their most looked for movements are the Seiko Time Module NE15 (Seiko 6R15), Seiko Time Module NH35 (Seiko 4R35) and Seiko Time Module NH36 (Seiko 4R36) movement (though it is hard to have access to their movements with lead times of around 12 months though at times available from movement brokers with scarce quantities)
