BP GMT 16710 Power Reserve problem

[mrsullivan]

Hello everyone,

I recently got a BP 16710 GMT Pepsi with A2813 CHS "Lite" (dont' really know why they call it "Lite").

When I received it I instantly knew something was wrong. The watch builds no PR (stops after + or - 30 mn without moving), and when I flip the watch upside down I can hear smoething moving inside.

Beside that the watch actually keeps great time (as long as it moves), I set time and date by time setting position only (did'nt play with GMT settings), and date flips perfectly.

I sent a mail to my dealer (Perfect Clones, not TD here) and Joshua was very responsive. He told me to open the caseback and check if a piece was visually in the way, detached or loose.

I must say that I never did this, but I'm pretty interested in getting inside the technical side so I got a rubber ball and opened the caseback today.
Nothing seems wrong at 1rst sight : everything seems in place, the rotor turns ok, and the different wheels seem to work ok from outside. But still I hear some parts moving loose from inside the movement.

Anyone has a clue?

I just mailed Joshua to keep him informed, but I would appreciate advice from the forum members.

Thank you all.

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[KJ2020]

How long Is the PR after a full wind?

When you rotate the watch around, does the rotor move freely to the bottom of the arc from the top?

 

[mrsullivan]

The PR stands about 30 to 40 mn after 30 to 40 windings, I actually never fully winded it as I'm a bit afraid to break something if I do. The rotor rotates freely yes.

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[Specter1000]

you could have a loose screw in the train...it's happened to me and just today answered another thread on same.

 

[KJ2020]

Mainspring is probably the issue. Either it's just weak or it got over greased and it's slipping along the barrel wall. Either way, if it were mine I would probably just replace it, they are cheap maybe $7. Unfortunately the DG3804S put the mainspring under a cover (bridge) that also covers some of the train wheels and getting all those pinions aligned with their jewels can sometimes be quite challenging (read - do not try this at home). In fact, few watchmakers lIke to work on 2813/3804s for this very reason.

 

[Oascom]

It's It's cheaper to just replace whole movement... Like KJ said it's pain to disassemble and assemble and those movements are cheap

 

[mrsullivan]

Thank you for your advices.
As KJ2020 says, I'm afraid it's not just about a loose rotor. It might be something way beyond my beginner's skills to repair.

1rst : I wait for Josh's answer to my email. They have a 3 months warranty policy, if ever it works I'll see what they offer me.

2nd : If it's a no way with the dealer, how much do I expect for a movement and where do I find it?

Thank you.

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[mrsullivan]

I just got news from Joshua from PClones, he asks me to send to watch back in China.
He gave me instruction regarding shipping. I know it can be tricky to send back to China, so : should I send it back or keep it and tell him I'll manage to repair it myself?

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[KJ2020]

I would never send a rep back to China, if for no other reason than you would then technically be an exporter of a counterfeit watch. Also, it would be substantial risk of loss, seizure etc.

I would first try to find someone to install a new mainspring. That's really all it can be if there's no PR on a full wind but it's otherwise running fine.

Yours is the new 3804 CHS yes?

Getting a new 3804 is no problem, they are readily available at most vendors. Ofrei, Startime, ebay, etc. They run about $40. However if you have a CHS you likely will have an issue with hands. The readily available 3804s have GMT hand on the bottom so your hand hole sizes for the GMT and hour hands are going to be reversed.

So, you either need a new CHS movement from a TD, or an Ebay ICHS movement and a new set of hands for an ICHS 3804. Hands are cheap, about $15

 

[mrsullivan]

I don't feel confortable with sending the watch back to China either. It's a first time for me this problem with a dealer's watch, so I'll stick to KJ2020 words and keep it.

I might loose the benefit of the warranty though, anyone has an opinion on this?

Let' s get technical now : the movement is a 2813 "lite" CHS. I don't know about how it relates to 3804. Of course I'd like to keep the watch CHS.

So should I ask Joshua for a spare new movement 2813 CHS movement if he agrees? And if not, head for a 3804 ICHS + hands set bought online?

Thank you again for the help.

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[DavidModic]

I don't feel confortable with sending the watch back to China either. It's a first time for me this problem with a dealer's watch, so I'll stick to KJ2020 words and keep it.
I might loose the benefit of the warranty though, anyone has an opinion on this?
Let' s get technical now : the movement is a 2813 "lite" CHS. I don't know about how it relates to 3804. Of course I'd like to keep the watch CHS.
So should I ask Joshua for a spare new movement 2813 CHS movement if he agrees? And if not, head for a 3804 ICHS + hands set bought online?
Thank you again for the help.
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KJ2020 gives good advice as usual.

As far as the “warranty” is concerned, I wouldn’t sweat it, if I was you. This is pretty much imaginary anyway, that is, you will only have warranty unless you need it. I don’t want to badmouth dealers, but since PC is not a TD here, it is perhaps allowable to write about our own experiences. YMMV, of course, and I am sure there are some folks who had really good experiences with Josh, and all the power to them. I am just writing about my own experiences and am not suggesting anyone should follow my example.

I used to buy a lot from Joshua in my early days and now I don’t any more. There are several reasons for this state of affairs, one is that on one occasion he charged me for an A2836, but sent me a watch with a Z2 instead, which became apparent when it broke a fortnight after receiving it and was impossible to fix, because you cannot get spare parts for a Z2. When contacted about the issue, and the fact that it was misrepresented, Josh got quite shirty with me and suggested that I was overstepping my remit for opening the watch up, and that the warranty was thus void. I was not looking for any kind of warranty, so I was not bothered about not getting it. I was not looking for help at all, I just wanted to let him know that he sold me the wrong movement, thinking I was gullible enough not to notice, but that I eventually did notice. Mine was more or less an email saying “I know what you did dude, you are either crooked or you have been taken too, but neither of these things flatter you”. His response irked me, because the fact that me checking whether someone was as good as their word and finding they weren’t, somehow made me the issue because I checked, and not the guy for scamming me. It happens, I moved on, no big deal.

I stopped buying from Joshua after the next watch (with GMT complication) did not completely work (the GMT hand was consistently one hour per day slow). I opened it up, with the aim of replacing the movement, which this time around was an A2386 as advertised, but the dial was glued on, feet removed. This is just shabby. I contacted Joshua and again had a longish exchange in which it was suggested I am setting the watch wrong and am just too stupid to understand how normal it is for a GMT hand to show it is 3AM for two hours every day. The watch was not one that I desperately wanted - it was the third replacement after the first two I wanted suddenly were not available any more after I paid for them and were confirmed to be available, by Josh. He did not say they were in stock. If he said that, I wouldn’t have believed it anyway. I know they are never in stock, whatever they tell me. So I was kinda meh about the watch from the start, but still, it should work. I was grudgingly offered an unspecified discount for the next watch I would buy from PC, but I felt at that time that it would be just throwing good money after bad. There are plenty of dealers who do better due diligence than that, so my money goes to them.

The third reason I stopped is more political I suppose. If I recall correctly Josh and Andrew and some other folks colluded in this or that. That got them removed from the TD list here. There are old threads still around if anyone is interested, feel free to read more, and correct me if I am wrong. I am aware that I might be close to one of the topics that are, as if by total coincidence, never mentioned on this and some other forums, so I will be stopping here. Mods, if I said too much, please feel free to censor me, but I would prefer not to be banned , and I meant no disrespect.

 

[mrsullivan]

Well, that's what I call a feedback. As far as my problem goes, Josh was actually very responsive, almost answering in the hour to my emails. So nothing bad to say about communication so far. It seems DavidModic had bad times with Josh, so just in case I'll keep your words in mind for future exchanges with him.

Regarding warranty, well... I'll inform Josh I keep the watch. If I were him I'd say "ok up to you, you're on your own now", but who knows. I'll let you guys know what's he says, and then I will decide what to do with the movement.

Thank you all.



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[KJ2020]

I don't feel confortable with sending the watch back to China either. It's a first time for me this problem with a dealer's watch, so I'll stick to KJ2020 words and keep it.

I might loose the benefit of the warranty though, anyone has an opinion on this?

Let' s get technical now : the movement is a 2813 "lite" CHS. I don't know about how it relates to 3804. Of course I'd like to keep the watch CHS.

So should I ask Joshua for a spare new movement 2813 CHS movement if he agrees? And if not, head for a 3804 ICHS + hands set bought online?

Thank you again for the help.

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This 2813 (misnomer) is not lite. In fact, it's robust. It is the CHS feature that is lite, a descriptor applied due to the relative cheapness and simplicity of the movement compared to it's predecessor and big brother 2824 CHS (A3186) movement.

There are many variants of the DG2813. To list just a few that apply here

Plain 2813 - no GMT

GMT 2813 - extra gear for extra (non-independent GMT hand) Still a 2813

2813 ICHS with independent GMT hand - is not a 2813 but a DG3804 - it's ICHS for 5 and 6 digit Rolex GMTs (CHS for 4 digit Rolex GMTs because those gens have the GMT hand on the bottom)

2813 CHS with independent GMT hand - is not a 2813 but a DG3804 - it's CHS for 5 and 6 digit Rolex GMTs (ICHS for 4 digit Rolex GMTs because those gens have the GMT hand on the bottom)

The last one is what I think you have based on what I've read and seen concerning your watch. This last DG3804 CHS movement is new and unique to BPs new releases. So the movements are not available anywhere except TDs AFAIK. Just like the old school 2824 CHS movements are not.

So, either get Josh to send you a replacement movement exactly like the one you have (I would expect to have to pay for it, plus shipping) or source an ICHS DG3804 and hands like I previously suggested. Your situation is not unique, members have paid TDs for 2836 ICHS movements to replace essentially DOA 2824 CHS ones. Those movements and hands run about $150. Which reminds me you COULD always just ask Josh to source an ICHS DG3804 movement and hands if you would rather. Same option as I outlined above, benefit of both movement and hands coming from the same source. If you have to source ICHS DG3804 yourself, the hands will have to be sourced separately.

Call the movement whatever you need to, to communicate effectively with your vendor. TDs calling it a 2813 is like ARF calling a modified A7750 an SA4130 or Noob calling a 2824 CHS an A3285. They are euphemisms at best, outright deception at worst. Although calling a DG3804 a DG2813 is an insult, so go figure.

 

[mrsullivan]

KJ2020 you should write a "handbook to reps", you cleared things up within a few lines!
I get it, I'll ask Josh for a new movement, and see what comes from it : warranty (even though I don't really count on it), cut off on price or whatever, I'll let you know here.

Great infos guys, thank you.

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[mrsullivan]

I got news from Josh, he can source a spare 2813 CHS movement for me for 90 $, so I guess the warranty won't apply for this.
But whatever, I'd rather keep the watch, even though it cost me an extra movement + a watchsmith or modder to replace it.

Any idea who I can send the watch to in Europe to get the job done? As it's gonna be a new movement, should I service it as well? I'm in France.

Thank you

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[DavidModic]

$90? A regular 2813 is around $15 on ebay. DG3804 GMT is $20, together with sterile dial and hands ( https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/28-5mm-s...=1837675476510203f70c1e8441af89a469ce184f162f).I have not invested enough time and effort to find a CHS 2813 GMT, but I am sure it is findable. Also, for that kind of money you could get a Hangzhou 6460 which is a lot higher quality movement, but you would need the 2836 dial and hands too.

 

[mrsullivan]

$90? A regular 2813 is around $15 on ebay. DG3804 GMT is $20, together with sterile dial and hands ( https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/28-5mm-s...=1837675476510203f70c1e8441af89a469ce184f162f).I have not invested enough time and effort to find a CHS 2813 GMT, but I am sure it is findable. Also, for that kind of money you could get a Hangzhou 6460 which is a lot higher quality movement, but you would need the 2836 dial and hands too.

Well, thank you for the info (and great stuff on your website BTW!).
The Hangzhou seems better and cost not so much more yes, but I'll stick to Josh's offer. It's a 90$ extra, but I made my mind with trying it out to get the watch finally working in its original specifications, with watch's original dial/hands.
I'm even thinking of doing the work myself, although no so sure it's a good idea yet (yes guys, I might need some help with this LOL).

In the end all this is very educating. I'm quite new into the rep game, with more time and experience I should be able to make more precise technical choices but it's a way to learn.

Josh gave a 2 weeks delay to get the new movement, probably will take longer but I will update the thread then.



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[DavidModic]

Well, thank you for the info (and great stuff on your website BTW!).

Thanks, glad you liked it.

The Hangzhou seems better and cost not so much more yes, but I'll stick to Josh's offer. It's a 90$ extra, but I made my mind with trying it out to get the watch finally working in its original specifications, with watch's original dial/hands.
I'm even thinking of doing the work myself, although no so sure it's a good idea yet (yes guys, I might need some help with this LOL).

I am not earning a commission from Hangzhou, so I am not all set on pushing this on you . Whatever makes you happy. I think this is unreasonably expensive (like 4x regular price), but if it works for you, it works for you.

As far as doing the work yourself, you may have to, as many watchmakers do not want to touch 2813 movements. They are flimsy and cheap. Makes much more sense to buy a new one instead of servicing it, cost wise. You pointing out that you just need a movement swap might not be convincing enough, or worth it. There are all kinds of things that can go wrong on replicas, so watchmakers are reluctant to work on them, especially on low cost ones.

if you want to just swap the movement, I would (a) probably buy an additional spare (too often I waited for weeks only to get a part of, or the whole movement to then immediately break or lose it only to reorder it and wait for weeks again...), (b) still need screwdrivers (high quality. Low quality are cheap but break or get dulled very very quickly) to remove the case clamps and get the stem out, if nothing else; case back opener; hand setter; hand remover, plastic pincers, metal pincers, nitrile gloves.

If it was me, I would buy a regular 2813 and swap in the parts from the “defective” one (I know it is only the barrel spring that is borked on that one, that is why I put “defective” in quotes). That would cost $70 less and would be delivered quicker. I assume that a few gears are different and perhaps the top plate. You’d need pincers (plastic and metal), set of good quality screwdrivers, hand removers, hand setting tools, caseback opener, nitrile gloves, and a microscope, preferably, to do this. Luckily you would have two movements side by side. I would take lots of pictures every step of the disassembly. I vaguely recall some springs under the top plate.

In the end all this is very educating. I'm quite new into the rep game, with more time and experience I should be able to make more precise technical choices but it's a way to learn.
Josh gave a 2 weeks delay to get the new movement, probably will take longer but I will update the thread then.

Cool, looking froward.

 

[KJ2020]

DavidModic gives great insights here. Indeed all the GMT bits would necessarily be on the dial side of the movement so moving them to a new 2813 would be a much cheaper way to get your watch running again without having to mess with the ultra fiddly back side bridges, pinions and jewels.

Regarding the low quality of 2813s, twice I have broken off the tip of the center wheel pinion in the seconds hand post sleeve when simply removing the hands on a DG. This usually renders both parts unusable. The DG seconds hand hole is only .17mm which is crazy small and it and the pinion are quite fragile.

I was able to fit a 2836 post sleeve onto one DG hand so I could re-use the hand in a 2836. I drilled out the hand hole a little and pressed and glued the larger post sleeve onto the hand. Tiniest drop of glue, wiped clean after drying then paint touch up with a single bristle brush. The 2836 hand was bent so two bad hands became one usable one.

I mention this here to alert you to the fragility of the DG movement parts. A replacement seconds (or minute) hand would be cheap and easy to source, but IDK where else besides a TD to get a GMT or hour hand as their hole sizes are unique due to hand stack positions. Also if you break off the tip of the center wheel pinion, any of these movements you work on is more or less shot without the disassembly of the back which no one wants to do.

Hand repair

 

[RiffRalf]

A lot of expertise floating around here, thread saved!