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Asian UNITAS movement questions
- Thread starter mywatches88
- Start date
Here is a quote from vaccum when he did a compare of the new Asian movement vs. the "Swiss" movement:
"Once again I decided to post this pictorial because of the lots of emails I receive everyday asking wich is the best movement....here we go...............
I took a Davidsen real "swiss" H series and a New asian swanneck H series
Dial side "swiss" vs. New asian
Look at the decoration and the shock protection system used.
The swiss has the Novodiac system (cheaper version)
The asian has the more expensive Incabloc. Both made by the same company.
Bridges side "swiss" vs. New asian
Both fonts are thinner and better finish overall.
"swan neck" regulator assy "swiss" vs. New asian
Look at the balance wheel asian is correct also the shock protection is correct.
"swiss" ETA stamp
NONE on the New asian
"swss" is 18000 bph wrong
New asian 21600bph correct like gen
Here is some info about the shock protection systems
My vote goes to the New asian swanneck movement......you decide wich one you want. :lol:"
These movements are getting better and better. With a servicing, they should last nearly as long as a Swiss, IMO. Repairability is the one question mark, as spare parts are few and far between. But you can always just replace the movement with another A6497 or buy a spare A6497 to use as a "parts movement".
"Once again I decided to post this pictorial because of the lots of emails I receive everyday asking wich is the best movement....here we go...............
I took a Davidsen real "swiss" H series and a New asian swanneck H series
Dial side "swiss" vs. New asian
Look at the decoration and the shock protection system used.
The swiss has the Novodiac system (cheaper version)
The asian has the more expensive Incabloc. Both made by the same company.
Bridges side "swiss" vs. New asian
Both fonts are thinner and better finish overall.
"swan neck" regulator assy "swiss" vs. New asian
Look at the balance wheel asian is correct also the shock protection is correct.
"swiss" ETA stamp
NONE on the New asian
"swss" is 18000 bph wrong
New asian 21600bph correct like gen
Here is some info about the shock protection systems
My vote goes to the New asian swanneck movement......you decide wich one you want. :lol:"
These movements are getting better and better. With a servicing, they should last nearly as long as a Swiss, IMO. Repairability is the one question mark, as spare parts are few and far between. But you can always just replace the movement with another A6497 or buy a spare A6497 to use as a "parts movement".
Very informative.
My only question is, on the Swiss ETA movement that has been modified, how much has been removed from the ETA movement? The bridges are different, the addition of the swan neck/dagger, etc. Are these Chinese parts that are swapped onto the ETA movement, making it some percentage Swiss and some percentage Asian? Also, when these parts are changed out, is it likely that the movement is lubed and regulated? Who makes/modifies these Swiss/Asian hybrid movements?
From what I hear ETA movements are going to be harder and harder to come by. Are the sellers offering these modified ETA movements going to switch completely to Chinese 6497 clone movements?
Have ANY Chinese 6497 clones been made with fake ETA stamps on the movement or are all ETA stamped movements at least partially Swiss?
Oh and do you know if the screws are chemically blued? I would be surprised if they are flame blued. Or are they painted?
My only question is, on the Swiss ETA movement that has been modified, how much has been removed from the ETA movement? The bridges are different, the addition of the swan neck/dagger, etc. Are these Chinese parts that are swapped onto the ETA movement, making it some percentage Swiss and some percentage Asian? Also, when these parts are changed out, is it likely that the movement is lubed and regulated? Who makes/modifies these Swiss/Asian hybrid movements?
From what I hear ETA movements are going to be harder and harder to come by. Are the sellers offering these modified ETA movements going to switch completely to Chinese 6497 clone movements?
Have ANY Chinese 6497 clones been made with fake ETA stamps on the movement or are all ETA stamped movements at least partially Swiss?
Oh and do you know if the screws are chemically blued? I would be surprised if they are flame blued. Or are they painted?
This has answered a lot of my questions. Beautiful job of comparing. One would think that with proper assembly,
quality control checks and testing that the asian ETA clone would perform as well as the Swiss. I know its all a crap
shoot what with differing QQ on batches but.....
You've really helped narrow my choices,
THANKS!
nbr
quality control checks and testing that the asian ETA clone would perform as well as the Swiss. I know its all a crap
shoot what with differing QQ on batches but.....
You've really helped narrow my choices,
THANKS!
nbr
doesnt it suck to be such a specialist....
having to answer all those questions !
but...we appreciate it !
having to answer all those questions !
but...we appreciate it !
babola
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Like with everything in life - horses for courses.
Some are OK with Asian heart in Asian rep.
Some demand Swiss heart in Asian rep.
Some like myself are perfectionists, or is that 'repper-fectionists' I sometimes wonder... :roll:
Bridges, wheels, springs, cocks, hands, heads, crowns were but medieval vocabulary in its time...further from horology than mitology...
what happened to us I sometimes wonder, have we all lost it somehow...babola's head hurts...and where's Klink when you need him, I ask in despair? :? :shock: :roll:
Swiss you say...of course it is, since there's no noteworthy substitute been so far made...
Some are OK with Asian heart in Asian rep.
Some demand Swiss heart in Asian rep.
Some like myself are perfectionists, or is that 'repper-fectionists' I sometimes wonder... :roll:
Bridges, wheels, springs, cocks, hands, heads, crowns were but medieval vocabulary in its time...further from horology than mitology...
what happened to us I sometimes wonder, have we all lost it somehow...babola's head hurts...and where's Klink when you need him, I ask in despair? :? :shock: :roll:
Swiss you say...of course it is, since there's no noteworthy substitute been so far made...
First and foremost, this is VACCUM's review, not mine. I have neither the tools nor the expertise to perform this comparo and I thank vaccum for taking the time and effort for doing it. Thanks, vac!
To answer some of the questions above:
1. I don't know how much of the movement has been replaced. Certainly all of the bridge plates, the swan neck and it's assembly (although the balance wheel is ETA, from appearances). The polished gear wheels too? I wouldn't be surprised. They are almost certainly modified/reassembled in the rep factories in China. I think it's very unlikely that these movements are regulated upon reassembly, lubricating is probably done, but how well? I would not be surprised to find some 6497s out there with fake ETA markings. I believe we've already seen that on movements we all initially thought were ETA 2824s. I think the blue screws are anodized or the like. There are almost certainly not flame blued.
2. In my mind, there is no doubt that these Asian movements could be as good as the ETA 6497s. China has the ability/technology to produce good movements, you need to look no further than some of the Seagull movements as examples. The problem with the A6497 is, IMO, the fact that this is an unlicensed copy of the original Unitas movement. As such, it is made in secret (as it's illegal) and denied the opportunity to be made in the best plants with the best QC and assembly. It also prevents it from having a proper distribution/parts network and support. So, my answer is that SOME Chinese movements can be made to the same level of their Swiss counterparts, but unfortunately for us, not the Panerai decorated A6497s.
Some people may disagree, but those are my thoughts. What do you guys think?
I know babola is a "purist" and far prefers the Swiss motors in our watches... :wink:
To answer some of the questions above:
1. I don't know how much of the movement has been replaced. Certainly all of the bridge plates, the swan neck and it's assembly (although the balance wheel is ETA, from appearances). The polished gear wheels too? I wouldn't be surprised. They are almost certainly modified/reassembled in the rep factories in China. I think it's very unlikely that these movements are regulated upon reassembly, lubricating is probably done, but how well? I would not be surprised to find some 6497s out there with fake ETA markings. I believe we've already seen that on movements we all initially thought were ETA 2824s. I think the blue screws are anodized or the like. There are almost certainly not flame blued.
2. In my mind, there is no doubt that these Asian movements could be as good as the ETA 6497s. China has the ability/technology to produce good movements, you need to look no further than some of the Seagull movements as examples. The problem with the A6497 is, IMO, the fact that this is an unlicensed copy of the original Unitas movement. As such, it is made in secret (as it's illegal) and denied the opportunity to be made in the best plants with the best QC and assembly. It also prevents it from having a proper distribution/parts network and support. So, my answer is that SOME Chinese movements can be made to the same level of their Swiss counterparts, but unfortunately for us, not the Panerai decorated A6497s.
Some people may disagree, but those are my thoughts. What do you guys think?
I know babola is a "purist" and far prefers the Swiss motors in our watches... :wink:
I agree that the Chinese do a great job with the movements they produce especially considering the nature of how they're manufactured. To the OP, yes the Asian movements are reliable and can last a long time even but the repairablity issue might be something else depending on the movement...Probably if not for the money factor we would all like true Swiss beating away in our watches. But the Asian movements have come a long way and will hopefully get even better...and I suppose to most none of this stuff really matters as long as our watches keep on ticking....chocolate anyone?
What a great review. Thank you. I can see that my prejudices against the Asian movements are based upon old information and that, with a bit of luck, they are as good. I am curious why everyone seems to assert that watch repairers will not touch asian movements. Is this simply the issue of lack of spare parts or is it other stuff too?
babola
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I'll try to be concise here...
The finish of the ultimate H-series Asian still isn't on par with Swiss ETA, it takes even an untrained eye to compare the photos from Vacuum, the ones that show main plate around balance wheel area. Granted, can't call it 'rough as guts' anymore but it's not there yet. But this is all minor stuff, not many care about.
The main issues comes with the fact the ultimate Asian comes in 6497-2 flavor, meaning higher beat, 21kb/h. This means one thing - MOST of the part of the drivetrain are DIFFERENT from lower beat ETA 6497-1.
6497-2 are impossible to source as a spare, as well as spare parts will not be available to your watchmaker if/when parts need replacing, so you WILL be left out in the dry, with almost no alternative. Sourcing another Asian 6497-2 mov't for spare parts is an option, but dealears refrain from selling these as spare mov'ts simply because rep factories are unwilling to do so these days. You may get lucky andhave another donor rep with the same mov't, but how many of us are willing to butcher one rep to fix the other?
For most people Asian mov't will be OK, they will wear the watch for a year or two, then sell it and buy another one or similar. The Asian mov't Vacuum shows is built and made to last some time for sure, but I wouldn't put my bets on its longevity over a prolonged period.
Also, most watchmakers won't touch the Asian rep mov't even remotely, I know mine won't, but this is mainly due misconception they formed inthe past, when asked to fix or service 'canal street' rep mov'ts. Let's hope the rep mov'ts we see in the future help them change their view on this particular matter. The future definitely looks bright, as themov'ts are getting better and better, take for example hi-beat A7750, my watchmaker almost fell off his chair when I showed him a photo of my 064 with caseback removed, he couldn't believe it wasn't ETA. So fingers crossed...
Take all this above with a grain of salt, these are my personal views, and I'm expressing them here just as an observation and for discussion purposes.
babola
The finish of the ultimate H-series Asian still isn't on par with Swiss ETA, it takes even an untrained eye to compare the photos from Vacuum, the ones that show main plate around balance wheel area. Granted, can't call it 'rough as guts' anymore but it's not there yet. But this is all minor stuff, not many care about.
The main issues comes with the fact the ultimate Asian comes in 6497-2 flavor, meaning higher beat, 21kb/h. This means one thing - MOST of the part of the drivetrain are DIFFERENT from lower beat ETA 6497-1.
6497-2 are impossible to source as a spare, as well as spare parts will not be available to your watchmaker if/when parts need replacing, so you WILL be left out in the dry, with almost no alternative. Sourcing another Asian 6497-2 mov't for spare parts is an option, but dealears refrain from selling these as spare mov'ts simply because rep factories are unwilling to do so these days. You may get lucky andhave another donor rep with the same mov't, but how many of us are willing to butcher one rep to fix the other?
For most people Asian mov't will be OK, they will wear the watch for a year or two, then sell it and buy another one or similar. The Asian mov't Vacuum shows is built and made to last some time for sure, but I wouldn't put my bets on its longevity over a prolonged period.
Also, most watchmakers won't touch the Asian rep mov't even remotely, I know mine won't, but this is mainly due misconception they formed inthe past, when asked to fix or service 'canal street' rep mov'ts. Let's hope the rep mov'ts we see in the future help them change their view on this particular matter. The future definitely looks bright, as themov'ts are getting better and better, take for example hi-beat A7750, my watchmaker almost fell off his chair when I showed him a photo of my 064 with caseback removed, he couldn't believe it wasn't ETA. So fingers crossed...
Take all this above with a grain of salt, these are my personal views, and I'm expressing them here just as an observation and for discussion purposes.
babola
I just have to add that I love Vac's review of the two movements side by side but I am a little curious about the different shock systems. His pic shows an Eta with the Novodiac but I have yet to find a real Swiss 6497 with this type. Every true 6497 I have seen has the Incabloc so I am perplexed by this, I have received 28"s with Novodiac but never 6497...also to add the Novodiac is a newer system made by Incabloc and I know it cost less but to infer that it is cheaper, well, grains of salt I guess.
Also if I had my drothers I would buy Swiss every time but alas not always practical.
Also if I had my drothers I would buy Swiss every time but alas not always practical.
my point of view...i agree with babola, thats why i am sad that the low beat swiss swan neck are no more available.
and i doubt the rep industry puts one cent into IMPROVING a mvmnt.
minimum effort....maximum return.
i prefer a swiss 6497-1 ( not even to mentin the high beat version 2) any asian mvmnt.
and i doubt the rep industry puts one cent into IMPROVING a mvmnt.
minimum effort....maximum return.
i prefer a swiss 6497-1 ( not even to mentin the high beat version 2) any asian mvmnt.
the look so similiar!
are parts interchangeable? i noticed the balance wheel on the ETA is larger than on the asian.
are parts interchangeable? i noticed the balance wheel on the ETA is larger than on the asian.
babola said:
poOOOOoOOooOOoOOooOOoOOooOOoOOooOOoOOooOOoOOooOOoOOooOOoOOoooOOoOoPIEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
An asian 6497 shall give you satisfactory service over years, but when it comes to repairs make sure you got another cheap asian 6497 for parts. Most watchsmithes won´t refuse to help you out, just don´t ask an AD.
However, the 6497 is a sturdy reliable workhorse, designed in the 1950s for pocket watches, and it is rather overbuilt compared to the modern movements. Gear wheels are big and beefy for a watch movement and they won´t wear out over night, no matter if asian or swiss.
However, the 6497 is a sturdy reliable workhorse, designed in the 1950s for pocket watches, and it is rather overbuilt compared to the modern movements. Gear wheels are big and beefy for a watch movement and they won´t wear out over night, no matter if asian or swiss.
What service interval is recommended for each movement assuming the watch is worn once or twice a week?
Haz
Haz