21 Jewel misnomer?

[cybee]

I think this needs to be clarified especially for any newcomer's that are shopping for replica's. There is enough confusion already regarding movements in reps but the fact is there are still a few "white lies" being told in advertising.

We already know that Eta does not make a 2813. There is no such thing as an Asian clone of an Eta 2813. The movement is correctly called a DG 2813 22 jewels, which is entirely made in Asia. Cost about $14 or $15 dollars. Yet some dealers still advertise this movement as "Asian ETA 2813 21J"... See the watch below from a non-endorsed dealer. There is a reason why a photo of the movement is not shown.

This watch is not Eta and it is not 21 jewels.
http://www.tt88time.com/index.php?main_ ... c43c93bef7

Also in this ad it states the movement is an "Asian Eta 2813." Again, it has nothing to do with Eta.
http://www.timeshops.net/Breitling_Stee ... 6-1265.htm

This watch is advertised as an Asian Eta 2824. This is the "clone" 2824 movement.
http://www.watcheden.com/breitling-supe ... 8-p-1.html

This ad has a more accurate description of the movement. It is Asian, in fact it is the DG 2813 22 jeweled movement but it is not stated. But again it is still referred to as 21 jewel. That fact is it is 22 jewel.
http://www.watcheden.com/breitling-supe ... 8-p-1.html

I know I am spliting hairs but I feel with new members coming on board it is good to revisit some of these things from time to time. Other areas of false advertising pertain to sapphire vs. mineral crystal, but that is for another day.

Also, if anyone knows what the true designation is for the famous and often called "21 jewel" movement please feel free to list it here. My contention is that "21 jewel" has just become a name for any simple rep movement that is non-Eta.

 

[takashi]

I support this clarification fully. It's important to have the name of the movement right. Not all Chinese movements are the same.

Another thing:
ETA2892-A2 clone is actually a Seagull ST26

 

[tenshin2002]

Thats strange as I thought the "Asian 21j" was the DG2813.
So what the heck is an "Asian 21j"?!

 

[cybee]

Thats strange as I thought the "Asian 21j" was the DG2813.

So do the dealers. That's why I call it a misnomer

The DG2813 Movement-
Automatic DG-2813 movement w/ 22 jewels

As seen in many inexpensive watches like the one below.
http://www.auctionriot.com/cgi-bin/ncom ... r=98022372

So what the heck is an "Asian 21j"?!

I have been waiting for this answer for two years now. :lol:

 

[tenshin2002]

Thats strange as I thought the "Asian 21j" was the DG2813.

So do the dealers. That's why I call it a misnomer

The DG2813 Movement-
Automatic DG-2813 movement w/ 22 jewels

As seen in many inexpensive watches like the one below.
http://www.auctionriot.com/cgi-bin/ncom ... r=98022372

So what the heck is an "Asian 21j"?!

I have been waiting for this answer for two years now. :lol:

Well, I have a Fakey SMP that supposedly has an "Asian 21j". Maybe he knows?
I dont want to open my watch to find out (dont have the tools).

 

[COLDI]

So I've seen people advertising the 2813 as 28,800 bph while some are low beat at 21,600. Is there just one 2813 or two different kinds, one high beat and one low beat?

 

[If you see Kay]

So I've seen people advertising the 2813 as 28,800 bph while some are low beat at 21,600. Is there just one 2813 or two different kinds, one high beat and one low beat?

One member was selling dg2813 highbeat movements. Normally dg2813 is a low beat 21,6 movement, but this seller claimed his was 28,8.

 

[sconehead]

The dg4813 is 28,800bph....the dg2813 is 21,600bph, both movements are really cheap to buy... :wink:

 

[COLDI]

If you see kay-

saw that. ordered one just to see if it was what he said. I cant see it being called the same thing if it beats faster. But he says it is the same dimensions as the 2813, but is shorter than the 4813. That or its overclocked somehow and it will blow! Only time will tell.

Can there be such a thing? He said they were discontinued....

 

[cybee]

the dg2813 is 21,600bph, both movements are really cheap to buy... :wink:

Hi Scone...Do you have a source that states the dg2813 is 21.6?

I can't find specs from Cousins, Casker, O Frie, WUS, or any other sources that list the BPH for the 2813.

@COLDI: I have not seen any supplier selling two different versions of a 2813.

 

[COLDI]

Cybee- Ya I looked at a few suppliers and never saw anything about a 28,8 mvt 2813. Are there any non-eta movements that beat at 28,8?

 

[sconehead]

It doesn't list the beat rate for the Miyota 82xx series movements on which the Dg2813/4813 are copied from. Nanning also produce the NN28/NN38 series, which are also supposed copies of the Miyota 82xx series and these again don't list the beat rate. Confusing hey?

However, Ajoe on RWG used to push out Asian subs upgraded with the 4813 movement which he claimed were hi-beat. Part of the deal was that you got a modded Sub and the original low-beat 2813 as a spare.

I've searched the web and found this for the 2813 which confirms it's 21600bph, http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db. ... China_2813 but can't find the info for the 4813 . I found this vid comparing the sweep of the two movements (4813 on the right) and you can see a visible difference.
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 813ls1.flv

So with all the info gathered here along with the vid, I think it's fairly safe to say that the 2813 is 21600 bph and the 4813 is in fact a 28800bph movement...

 

[COLDI]

man that video is awesome!

Thanks!

 

[cybee]

Sconehead: That is great work. I searched the Ranfft database and could not find anything but glad you were able to. He also list the 2813 as a 21 jewel movement but Casker list it as 22 jewels. I guess no sense in splitting hairs about that anymore even though I think dealers refer to the 21 jewel erroneously.

Here is the 2812 movement which we do not hear much about but almost identical to the 2813.
http://www.jewelerssupplies.com/DG-2812.html

I had read some about the 4813 from Ajoe on the WUS forum. Compiling accurate data is not the easiest thing to do with Chinese movements.

COLDI: Some of the clone Eta's (ST movements) beat at the high rate.

 

[sconehead]

On the packaging from Ofrei it definItely states 22j...

 

[fakemaster]

Sheesh if you only knew how many times I had this conversation. Good post man

 

[alvinado]

the dg2813 is 21,600bph, both movements are really cheap to buy... :wink:

Hi Scone...Do you have a source that states the dg2813 is 21.6?

I can't find specs from Cousins, Casker, O Frie, WUS, or any other sources that list the BPH for the 2813.

@COLDI: I have not seen any supplier selling two different versions of a 2813.

Cybee, I also could not find details for the dg 2813, but i knows it ticks at 6 beats per sec. So that makes it 21600bph!

 

[cybee]

Sheesh if you only knew how many times I had this conversation.

Yep I can only imagine

I guess we can now conclude that the 2813 is not a high-beat movement and definitely not a 21 jewel movement. Now if we could only get the dealers from stating "Asia ETA 2813 21J." Probably fat chance of that but at least we know the difference.

$100 reward for the capture of the infamous 21 jewel movement. :lol:

 

[fakemaster]

Now you guys know I stay out of these types of topics. It always ends up being a he said she said situation. Not to mention the real point gets missed.

Let's just toss out the notion of getting the dealers to change their descriptions. In this case it doesn't matter. There should only be certain times to be concerned about this. An example would be when Jandrew began selling the new '29 Jewel' Daytona. Now that was bad because there hadn't been any more jewels added so I was very vocal on that. But in this case they're indicating fewer jewels than it actually has. So it's not like anyone is getting ripped off. Now I use the term 21J when referring to the movements that I use. But in my descriptions I have always said '2813 'aka' 21J'. Why do I say that? Becuase I know it's got 22. But as with many things in this hobby there is a misinformation quotient. The people who have never held a particular model (rep or gen) or even cracked open a watch far outweigh the ones who have. As a result people have been using that term for so long that overcoming it is almost impossible. Seriously, if I were to list a Sub. And in the description said '22J' or '22 Jewels', it would turn into a 10 page Q&A on what do I mean by that? Huh? There is no such thing. And it would happen on EVERY one because as we know very few use the search button. So it's easier to go with the commonly used terms.

With that said more jewels are better but they don't make the movement 'better'. And it doesn't really have anything to do with the BPH. That is done through mechanical changes in the movement construction. The extra jewels are added to support the change in architecture. Example A gen 111 comes with a OP XI. That runs at 21.600. But It only has 17 jewels. Is it a bad movement? Hell no it is great even in rep form. The point here is that it comes down to servicing. You can have a 100 jewel movement that runs a 18.800. But if there is no lubrication then it can blow up just as easily as a 2836 running at 28.800 with 25 jewels. Now I will say that less jewels can make a bad situation worse. If you buy a Patypong rep which usually runs in the $60 to $80 range, you'll be lucky to get 17 jewels. Often it is less. Combine that with the fact it is as dry as an 80 year old hookers coochie and you've got a recipe for disaster.

Ultimately since the '21J' is actually a '22J', I say don't stress over it. To this day (and in this very thread) I'm sure there will be quite a few people who will debate it just for the sake of debating it. Especially after this post. It's my opinion of course but IMO no matter how you slice it, it comes back to the same thing..QC, build, regulation and servicing. That's the thing I think people should focus on.

At the very least we have a thread to link back to if a noob says 'What's this 22J I heard about and is it better than the '21J'.

 

[cybee]

Ultimately since the '21J' is actually a '22J', I say don't stress over it. To this day (and in this very thread) I'm sure there will be quite a few people who will debate it just for the sake of debating it. Especially after this post. It's my opinion of course but IMO no matter how you slice it, it comes back to the same thing..QC, build, regulation and servicing. That's the thing I think people should focus on.

At the very least we have a thread to link back to if a noob ays 'What's this 22J I heard about and is it better than the '21J'.

I agree 100 % FM...I guess somewhere back in rep history there must have been an actual "21 jewel" movement, and the term just stuck to mean anything other than an Eta. Whatever we call it, we know that 2813 is a good and reliable movement. But it still bugs me that the big dealers still continue to fail in their descriptions. But, that's what I get for being an anal WIS.

Also part of what we do at RWI is at least make an attempt at getting the facts straight as best we can, even when those facts seem inconsequential.