113H - "The Ghost" (dealer question?)

[panman8888]

This may be a question for the dealers...

I know white face panny's aren't quite as popular as the black face models, but I personally really like them. A lot! But I don't like the 113 reps out there.

The newer gen 113's (H series plus) have 3 things the reps don't have, and I'm wondering if a fix is coming. Those things are:

1. A "recessed" subsecond dial (much like the subsecond dials on a 172 or the chron dials on a 212)

2. Thicker, slightly bigger font.

3. Thick, brushed crown guard (though I think this along with swan neck began appearing in some of the reps).

Here are a couple gen images showing the subsecond dial. one is a newer H series with fat, brushed crown guard:

 

[WatchDude13]

I'd personally love to see those changes and would jump on one if it hit our dealers "shelves".

Let's git'r'dun!

 

[hk45ca]

the brushed crown guard is correct for newer models. with that said contact ruby. hers doesn't have the problems that you are talking about.

look in her dealer area, mine is shown there. the factory had installed the wrong hands on it and they offered to fix it for me but i was going to put davidsen's hands on it and super lume the dial so i declined.

no recessed cannon pin

subdial in correct location

polished crown guard which is correct for 113e with matching (e) serial numbers on the back

good ar

beautiful swiss swan neck

check it out. you won't find one that is closer.


like i said they offered to change the hands for me but i was going to change so i declined.

enjoy!


gen pic from tz




ruby's

 

[Roeod4]

For comparison

My 2 main things with this one are the greenish markers and hands and the lack of the recessed second sub dial.

 

[hk45ca]

does a (e) series have a recessed sub dial? i can't find my pictiures of a (e) series. some pictures of (h) series you can see it and some you can't. the gen picture i posted is a (h). i was looking for my pics of (e) series and i must of mistakenly deleted them.

 

[Roeod4]

This is an E

I think this is a G or E

This is an H or I

For the most part I think the subdial is only for the H and I series. I also think it is only noticable and the proper angle.

 

[panman8888]

roeod4 - i'm with you

the greenish hands/markers are way off.

the lack of a recessed subdial is VERY noticeable to me. maybe it's because i've come very close to pulling the trigger on a gen a few times, and a good friend at work has a gen. so i've seen it and noticed this feature a lot. and it really makes the watch beautiful (one of the things i love about the 172 dial versus a 111, for example).

the font on ruby's seems a bit too large and thin, but that could always be distortion from the camera or the crystal of the watch/angle of the shot.

on a white face, good AR coating is critical. another thing that made my old 113 rep look like crap next to my friend's gen. you could see every detail on his dial under almost any light and angle, while mine was one big white glare, reflecting everything everywhere.

anyway, if the manufacturers/dealers can come through on this, i think there is a market for a nice 113H rep with correct color hands/markers (almost white), good AR coating from the inside, no canon pinion problem, recessed sub-second dial, fat brushed crown guard, etc.

 

[hk45ca]

well, maybe i am blind, i can see the recessed sub dial on the h and i but not on the e so with pictures blown up that large and not being able to tell if the e has it or not i am not going to worry about it on my arm. the font looks good enough to me inperson and since they can't even keep their own fonts consistant through the years i am surely not going to worry about that.

i looked at everybodys 113 before i bought this one and i found this one to be the closest to gen out there. all the others i looked at have the top and bottom subdial markers in the wrong place against the 10 and 8 hour markers. that is easly seen while you are wearing the watch. as far as the lume color goes it didn't matter to me because i had davidsen hands installed and the dial relumed.

when i receive it back from vaccume i will post pictures of it. i haven't done a dealer reveiw on it either because i was going to do both at the same time.

 

[panman8888]

i agree with you, as well!

well, maybe i am blind, i can see the recessed sub dial on the h and i but not on the e so with pictures blown up that large and not being able to tell if the e has it or not i am not going to worry about it on my arm. the font looks good enough to me inperson and since they can't even keep their own fonts consistant through the years i am surely not going to worry about that.

i looked at everybodys 113 before i bought this one and i found this one to be the closest to gen out there. all the others i looked at have the top and bottom subdial markers in the wrong place against the 10 and 8 hour markers. that is easly seen while you are wearing the watch. as far as the lume color goes it didn't matter to me because i had davidsen hands installed and the dial relumed.

when i receive it back from vaccume i will post pictures of it. i haven't done a dealer reveiw on it either because i was going to do both at the same time.

i think the e series in fact didn't have many of the features i mention, including the recessed subdial. and the font HAS changed on the gens quite a bit between the pre-G and post G series. i can't wait to see pix of yours when you get it in. it sounds like it's going to look fantastic.

and i didn't mean to say it looks bad/not right...again, i was just wondering if someone would do a good job of a H or I series which is quite different from what you have.

 

[hk45ca]

yes i understand what you are saying. i just haven't seen any pictures where i can tell if the e has the recessed sub dial. it mat have it and it just isn't showing up in the pictures i am looking at because of the way they are taken. i am curious to see a gen e series in person now.

i wish i knew where i could compare mine to a gen e in person. that would be great to put them in my hand and look at them with a loupe. that would really tell the story. as we all know pictures don't always tell the whole story when you are looking as closely as we do.

when i was comparing it to the pictures on the pam site there was only 1 picture where i could tell 100% that the crown guard was brushed on the gen h or i. those pictures are either computor generated or heavely retouched. the black fonts on the dial look very strange to me and don't look the same as pictures of gens i see on tz and such.

when i receive it back from vaccum i will take some pictures and post them. i am not going to make any more changes to it. we can look at it and see how far off the mark it is at that point.

i defanitly welcome all comments about how it looks and the changes we have made to it.

 

[vaccum]

yes i understand what you are saying. i just haven't seen any pictures where i can tell if the e has the recessed sub dial. it mat have it and it just isn't showing up in the pictures i am looking at because of the way they are taken. i am curious to see a gen e series in person now.

i wish i knew where i could compare mine to a gen e in person. that would be great to put them in my hand and look at them with a loupe. that would really tell the story. as we all know pictures don't always tell the whole story when you are looking as closely as we do.

when i was comparing it to the pictures on the pam site there was only 1 picture where i could tell 100% that the crown guard was brushed on the gen h or i. those pictures are either computor generated or heavely retouched. the black fonts on the dial look very strange to me and don't look the same as pictures of gens i see on tz and such.

when i receive it back from vaccum i will take some pictures and post them. i am not going to make any more changes to it. we can look at it and see how far off the mark it is at that point.

i defanitly welcome all comments about how it looks and the changes we have made to it.

Yours does not have the recessed sub dial.

Cheers, vaccum

 

[panman8888]

ALL have had recessed subdial

yes i understand what you are saying. i just haven't seen any pictures where i can tell if the e has the recessed sub dial. it mat have it and it just isn't showing up in the pictures i am looking at because of the way they are taken. i am curious to see a gen e series in person now.

i wish i knew where i could compare mine to a gen e in person. that would be great to put them in my hand and look at them with a loupe. that would really tell the story. as we all know pictures don't always tell the whole story when you are looking as closely as we do.

when i was comparing it to the pictures on the pam site there was only 1 picture where i could tell 100% that the crown guard was brushed on the gen h or i. those pictures are either computor generated or heavely retouched. the black fonts on the dial look very strange to me and don't look the same as pictures of gens i see on tz and such.

when i receive it back from vaccum i will take some pictures and post them. i am not going to make any more changes to it. we can look at it and see how far off the mark it is at that point.

i defanitly welcome all comments about how it looks and the changes we have made to it.

i can't wait to see your watch. it sounds like it's going to be killer regardless. seriously!

well, i hate to be the messenger, mate, but .the E definitely had a recessed subdial. which means they've all had it. here is an E for sale, where it is clearly visible.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/353390/m ... 109688077/

my understanding is that E and F series were identical (polished, thinner CG and same dial, same font). Here is another picture of an E or F series that shows it has the subdial (you really have to look for it in the photo):
http://www.paneristi.com/reference/vend ... _113_4.jpg

this is taken from the paneristi reference section:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/353390/m ... 109688077/

and i was talking to the AD (who is actually a collector himself) and he said they all had the subdial feature, though to me, it seems much more pronounced on the G, H and I...but then again, those are the only ones I've seen in person (gen that is).

 

[hk45ca]

i can see it in the first and last picture. i had not been able to see it in the pictures i looked at before. like vaccum said it doesn't have it for sure so that will be one flaw i will have to live with unless somebody makes a dial for it. the only upside to this is that the dial is white so it makes it harder to see this problem

i bet all of them have the same dial. atleast they look like they do. this is one of the down sides of trying to do this from pictures. they don't always show us everything we want to see. between that and unannounced small changes from time to time makes it very diffacult to fine tune one. i guess in someways the small production changes can help us because gens even look different from lot to lot

 

[panman8888]

yes

i can see it in the first and last picture. i had not been able to see it in the pictures i looked at before. like vaccum said it doesn't have it for sure so that will be one flaw i will have to live with unless somebody makes a dial for it. the only upside to this is that the dial is white so it makes it harder to see this problem

i bet all of them have the same dial. atleast they look like they do. this is one of the down sides of trying to do this from pictures. they don't always show us everything we want to see. between that and unannounced small changes from time to time makes it very diffacult to fine tune one. i guess in someways the small production changes can help us because gens even look different from lot to lot

yep, you're right on all counts!

the small variations in gens, and the incremental improvements in reps...well, they keep us coming back with our wallets! seriously, now *there* is an interesting conspiracy theory on both industries.

 

[Roeod4]

I wonder about the PAM 003. Same watch as the 113 E & F, but with closed caseback.

I have only seen 3 or 4 really good pics of an 003, but I do not see a recessed sub dial on this watch.

Maybe a closed caseback from one of the PAM 001 models out there would solve the problem.

I would prefer to have a proper dial like the H or I series more, simply because I like the brushed CGs more than the polished. If I can't get that, then building an 003 may be the way to go.

 

[hk45ca]

that is a intresting idea. i like the look of the polished cg except for the fact it always has finger prints on it.

 

[panman8888]

I wonder about the PAM 003. Same watch as the 113 E & F, but with closed caseback.

I have only seen 3 or 4 really good pics of an 003, but I do not see a recessed sub dial on this watch.

Maybe a closed caseback from one of the PAM 001 models out there would solve the problem.

I would prefer to have a proper dial like the H or I series more, simply because I like the brushed CGs more than the polished. If I can't get that, then building an 003 may be the way to go.

well, i think it's safe to say all 44mm white face luminors have had the recessed subsecond dial.

check out this picture of the pre-Vendome slytech - so when the heck will the rep makers upgrade the dial for this?!

 

[hk45ca]

good question, but i must admit since it is white it's very hard to see that flaw while it is on your arm. if that flaw was on a black dial it would be so easy to see it would be a deal breaker for me. it doesn't even show up in about 98%of the close up pictures on the white dial.

 

[panman8888]

i agree with you

that on black dials, it's more readily visible.

but in person, i think it is very noticeable even on the white dials once you see the gen. pictures do not always capture it, however, perhaps due to lighting or reflection off the white face that cause the two to blend??? i dont know. but see it right away on the gen, and i think it adds a lot of character.

and you know, for me, my wish for the recessed subsecond is not necessarily for having a perfect rep. rather, it is because i just like how on the 192, 212 and white face luminors like the 113, the subsecond is recessed. gives a little extra character over say a 111 dial, while still retaining the simplicity of these watches. this is the main reason i want to see it rep'd. i just love how my friend's 113H dial looks over the reps...b/c of the subsecond (oh yeah, and the beautiful AR which reps still don't come close to...there isn't a "sheet" reflection of say blue or green hue, but instead, you feel like you can reach through and touch the dial...that's what AR is for, not reflecting a color!).

otherwise, don't get me wrong: i think the 113 reps (especially if they have the right mods, like canon fix, right ar, right cg, etc.) are very close to the gen AND look very nice on their own.

 

[hk45ca]

you are right, there is not a sheet reflection of color on the crystal but it is easly visable from 20 feet away on my 113 and the crystal looks like it isn't there. it works very well. we have done all of the mods on this one but if a dial becomes avaliable with the recessed sub dial i will replace this one. for now this is the best dial there is for this watch. the sub dial marks are in the correct location against the 10 and 8 markers. the dial on my davidsen 195 has the sheet of color across it but it is no more clear than this one.