Rolex Experts, Help needed - Franken Super 16610 Rep vs Genuine 16610

[jonathanw]

Hello,



?I have a co-worker who is showing me (this week) some of his "supposedly" gen rolex watches and wants to sell me one, he claims he is in dire need of cash. So he's telling me he sells me his Rollie Sub aluminium 16610 (used of course) for a cheap price, $1000 USD, which is ridiculous because on chrono24 the cheapest 2nd hand 16610s go for $4000 USD. I don't knw why but he seems like a little deceptive, maybe the watches are stolen or something or are super reps, that doesn't make much senses because for the price he's selling you barely can buy a super rep like a franken TC Sub v6. Anyways he seems like kinda crook to me, he is a Lab technician and wants to show me the watches at a local starbucks without other coworkers looking around. He says need the money to pay for his daughter's school past due fees and he took the rolex box as an inheritance from his dad.


I know the common tells between a super rep like a TC Sub V6 vs a Gen 16610,but what about a franken super rep, like a TC Sub V6 with franken bezel/insert and crystal/crown. Are there "common" tells to distinguish between a gen 16610? I know TC dial are almost spot on with a gen, but through a loupe you can find flaws on the finishing of the indices for example, but what if its got a gen dial as a franken?



He claims he can't have the watch opened because he doesn't have the time to take it to an AD to have it identified as gen, but the will let me look at it even through a loupe.

I know that its supposed to have a gen 3135 movement, so if I play the crown to set the date / time etc I will know if its an ETA or a 3135 (could be a yuki 3135 though!) by watching the hands movements CW/CCW in respect to the crown movements, but the concrete question,

Are there any other less known tells, like the hand stack? I have read somewhere about this but can find the information and haven't been able to find anything despite a through and time consuming research on google and all the other forums. I don't want to expend cash on a super rep pretending to be a gen! I'd rather knw its a super rep and decide to buy it -or not- as I already have a TC Sub V6 with a gen insert.



Thank you very for reading and I would appreciate your help!

Best regards

 

[marrickville]

On a genuine 3135 movement, turning the time back, aka anticlockwise, should actually flip the date back as well.

That is always a simple check.

 

[PaulyWalnuts]

Take pictures and post them up when you see the goods.
I suspect it should be fairly obvious once the watch is in your hands, most fakes I've seen in the wild pale in comparison to what we're used to around here. On another note, I believe the canon pinion should be capped and most reps will have a hole down the center(pin that holds the hands).
Don't get scammed! At this point there's probably more fake Rolexes out there than real ones, and if dude already seems shady...

 

[PaulyWalnuts]

On a genuine 3135 movement, turning the time back, aka anticlockwise, should actually flip the date back as well.

That is always a simple check.

That's good to know

 

[jonathanw]

On a genuine 3135 movement, turning the time back, aka anticlockwise, should actually flip the date back as well.

That is always a simple check.

^^^This I didn't know. But a yuki 3135 will do that as well, a SA 3135 ? I don't know. So does turning the crown CCW -while DATE SETTING- will actually also turn the date BACKWARDS too?

This is what I know to be a fact, I have been talking to a friend of mine who knows A LOT about watches in general, and this is what we came up with:

ANY movement pretending to be a genuine R3135 or a yuki 3135 should adjust (both date and hands movement) following the crown movement. Crown CW = both date and hands turn CW and viceversa. Unlike the ETAs that with crown CW the date will go CW but the hands will go CCW.

So all of the modern and vintage submariners/Yacthmasters should have EITHER 3035 (from 1977 to 1988) or a 3135 (from 1988 onward - today).

Rolex 3035 movement: Crown CW, hands CCW. Date direction respect to crown ??? I don't know, but hands / time will go against crown direction, like ETAs.

***So if someone claims to sell you a genuine submariner (16610 or 116610) or yachtmaster (16622 or 116622) and the crown movement doesn't follow the aforementioned rules, NO MATTER HOW GENUINE IT LOOKS -COULD BE A FRANKEN SUPER REP- its either not genuine (ETA swiss or clone movement inside) or it has a 1977-1988 genuine 3035 rolex movement inside (HIGHLY unlikely).

On the other hand IF the hands/date movement follows the aforementioned rules, then its either actually genuine or its got a yuki 3135, a SA315? I don't know, I can't find how the date/hands adjust regarding the crown movement, hope some users in the know please chime in.

thats why I need to know OTHER tells.

Take pictures and post them up when you see the goods.
I suspect it should be fairly obvious once the watch is in your hands, most fakes I've seen in the wild pale in comparison to what we're used to around here. On another note, I believe the canon pinion should be capped and most reps will have a hole down the center(pin that holds the hands).
Don't get scammed! At this point there's probably more fake Rolexes out there than real ones, and if dude already seems shady...

Thank you mate!

Ive been here for almost a month, but been reading like a mad man for 3 months, for hundreds of hours, as this has been very addicting to me. I think I know the usual tells, but Im afraid it may be a super rep, with maybe one franken part. Thank you, I will of course NOT buy without the help from 1000 eagle eyes from all my friends of RWI
:balloon:

VOILA!!

LEFT : Latest TC Sub V6
RIGHT : GEN 16610

As you can see the Gen has the capped pinion , with a perfect cone like brushed cup, and the TC doesn't have a cap, has a hole, appears to be riveted and looks a little irregular. Nice tell! and maybe one doesn't even need a macro, or loupe to tell but with a good eye it can be done, its a major and instant tell for people in-the-know. Also, the TC the hand stack is incorrect in respect to the gen, GEN: the second hand is on top, TC the minute hand is on top.


EDIT: It seems TC fixed the hand stack on his very latest Subs, as can be seen here, BUT the cannon/pinion still doesn't have the nice brushed cone like cap, but appears riveted still, though with a donut-like rivet.

ED

 

[jonathanw]

double post

 

[marrickville]

hand stack has never been incorrect

seconds hand always on top - thats probably just bad photo.

 

[d4m.test]

Hi, no major problem there, if You know "the common tells between a super rep like a TC Sub V6 vs a Gen 16610" and it still looks gen to You, this will always be a good deal, even if it´s a TC with gen insert, gen crown and Yuki movement only. You already have a TC so You have a good comparison basis - if the other looks much better to You - why not. If it does look the same or worse - there is no reason to get it, even if it would be gen (which with that price You already know either it isn´t or there is a big catch to it).
It still is a co-worker You´re dealing with, so not a total stranger and trackable if need be.

 

[Smoke]

Gens have cannon pinions like both examples, like the capped off brushed one.and the other rivet style h4 tc pinion.most reps have an ugly big hole not like tch4 or gen and it's obvious.

 

[ViperGTS]

ask him to give you the watch and you can take it to an AD yourself.

or just walk away, seems shady

 

[vegasbaby]

We need updates OP!


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[BSCS]

I'd would for sure ask him if I could take it to an AD myself. If he refused to let me, I would be suspicious. If it's a good franken, 1000 is fine.

 

[J___]

I don't think you'd even need a loupe to distinguish between a TC V6 dial and a gen dial. It's actually quite clear, especially in person.

But yeah, the superfrankens...those can be pretty darn difficult to distinguish because, well, they're gen parts after all.

 

[SUMIKITO]

You are in the USA right ? Well, let me tell you that ANY large pawnshop in ANY town or city in America will take that 16610 for at least $2000........at least. If you fail to redeem it, they can flip it faster then a speeding bullet the next day for $3,000.....BAM !! And that is a fact !! That alone tells you something, doesn't it ???? ....Hmmmmmmm???? $1,000.......hmmmmm

 

[Turbo350z]

Waiting for updates on this

 

[SUMIKITO]

I think the sellers a shark, and the OP should know that. Tooooooooo cheap to be believable. Why he even wonders if it is Gen or not is ........... :thud:

 

[BSCS]

I've seen people in debt selling stuff for dirt cheap, so you never know...


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[FiloViridae]

I've seen people in debt selling stuff for dirt cheap, so you never know...


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Yep.. Completely agree. Plus, when it comes to your family and loved ones... I'd sell anything I needed for the money that j need to get things done correctly. Lose some on a watch? Or have your daughters school not paid.. But, the AD part,, ehh.. I have a couple valuable cars I'd let go well under value if I needed something for my family..


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[pulp fiction]

I've seen people in debt selling stuff for dirt cheap, so you never know...

Yep.. Completely agree. Plus, when it comes to your family and loved ones... I'd sell anything I needed for the money that j need to get things done correctly. Lose some on a watch? Or have your daughters school not paid.. But, the AD part,, ehh.. I have a couple valuable cars I'd let go well under value if I needed something for my family..

Too much wishful thinking. Like we're willing to let go things really cheap for emergencies, but not that cheap. It's alrdy stated that you can walk into any pawn shop and get $2000+ for it, so why is he selling it for $1000? Not to mention if you go to a pawnshop, you can pawn it and get it back later if you don't want to lose it permanently. We all like to think we got a super good deal and can turn it around for 3-4 times the profit, but 99% of the time it's just a trap.

 

[mocca]

Too much wishful thinking. Like we're willing to let go things really cheap for emergencies, but not that cheap. It's alrdy stated that you can walk into any pawn shop and get $2000+ for it, so why is he selling it for $1000? Not to mention if you go to a pawnshop, you can pawn it and get it back later if you don't want to lose it permanently. We all like to think we got a super good deal and can turn it around for 3-4 times the profit, but 99% of the time it's just a trap.

^^ this I agree.