A2836 v A21J - Are we being ripped off?

[davylloyd]

Before you read the title of the thread and jump all over it, or tell me I'm an idiot if I don't know the difference ( I do! ), let me explain what I mean.

On most dealers websites, a watch based on an A21J will be somewhere around the $100 mark. On those same websites, the same watch based on an A2836 will be upward of $200. Yes, there may be some small cosmetic differences in the cases, but not usually anything that costs big bucks.

I'm not asking why you'd pick one over the other - I totally get that - but why the extra cost?, they are, after all, both just copies of gen movements, one a Miyota, one an ETA. There aren't any extra complications. There are 4 extra jewels in the ETA (pennies anyway). To make it more absurd, there's less difference between the cost of an A7750 and an A2836, with all the extra complications and parts, than there is between an A2836 and an A21J

I know I'm missing the point somewhere, but it's like being told that a rep of a Patek Philippe will cost four times more than a Rolex rep because of the respective cost of the gens.

 

[Rudy40]

I would like to here some more input on this topic myself?

 

[cattlecattle]

assuming the case and any other item is the same. i go for the cheapest. afterall it is replica not real

 

[MMs]

it's not just the movement that changes, it's everything that goes with it.
often times the crown changes.
often times the hands change.
often times it's a different dial.
the datewheel is almost always different.

there's a large difference in quality and robustness in the movements if you ask me.
I feel the 2813 generally looks and feels cheaper. how can it look cheaper? just look
at the date wheel for that. and we all know how many of them feel and sound.

if you are a penny pincher and don't care about tells or accuracy to gen, then it might
be best to stick with the 2813s. you'll have to endure living with a movement that
is a real crapshoot if it'll be good or not. I prefer the ETA clones myself, I feel they
both look and feel of much higher quality and are worth the money.

I would service an asian ETA clone and use it for years to come. I would
never service a 2813 and would plan on the watch being worthless in a few years.

 

[coolwatchdude]

I think it's based on marketing strategy. Here's one analogy. Say you shop for a car of a specific model (e.g Honda Civic) early models. You shop for the basic. Something that will get you from point A to B (21J) then you realize you want something better with all the goodies (power door locks and AC CD changer etc (Asian clone). Then you wanna upgrade so you send it to a modder (for cosmetics and service) Wiz, Vac, Speedy, Concepta I know I'm name dropping here. When most of us first started, I bet it was just getting from A to B. but with forums like this, we learned we could get more out of our "investment" the satisfaction from not having to pay retail on gen and still have a close and accurate watch. When the factories started, I'm pretty sure they did some R&D and they knew who their target audience was. My apologies if this doesn't make any sense. I just wanted to share my thoughts. BTW- who'd ever thought I'd pay $700 for reps? It's a fun hobby. Just know what you're doing

 

[Ilias_t]

The 2813 is cheaper solution if you are planning on using it for a short time. But if you really going to like the watch it can turn to an expencive project, because you have to change and mod everythng on it. Of cource, if you have it for a hobby, the cheap A21J watch will be better as a base to start.

 

[coolwatchdude]

BTW- 21J for rolex not much significant difference but Panerai, AP, TH, Etc BIG difference. Almost a completely different watch, but I know what you mean. Just wanted to point that out

 

[Bonesey]

The tooling for an eta clone as well as manufacturing accuracy, quality control, materials are all much more than that needed for the miyota clones.

Sent from my HTC Desire S

 

[txrob779]

+1 Bonesey...in most cases the parts are so closely cloned on an asian ETA that the parts interchange with the Swiss counterpart. I have clones with Swiss parts in them and clones with Swiss parts in them. I personally think a Miyota 85xx feels pretty cheap to me anyway but understand. There are prolly 4 different makers of what we call a DG movement. From bad bad bad to real friggin good. I have 2 or 3 reps with the REAL DG in them from Otto Frei @ $26 ea and lemme tell ya, there is a HUGE difference in visual quality, fit, feel and finish with these. Just something to think about.

 

[TESLA760]

Call me crazy, but simply winding a 21j is noticeably different in the feel. I personally cannot tolerate them. But you can get great deals if they are your cup of tea.

 

[watchman12345]

I agree. The A21J feels horrible to wind, the rotor spins horribly and the general make-up of the watch is usually poorer.

 

[airking]

The design/engineering of the 2836 movement is better than the a21j whether Swiss or clone. So it's designed to be more efficient and the 2836 design has been around for long enough to prove it (tried and true). The 21j isn't too bad, but try to service it or mod it and you risk the chance of screwing it up. To me 21j is good if you want to wear a watch and when it starts to crap out, you trash it and get another watch. The clone/eta is if you want to keep it and service/mod it.

 

[davylloyd]

The design/engineering of the 2836 movement is better than the a21j whether Swiss or clone. So it's designed to be more efficient and the 2836 design has been around for long enough to prove it (tried and true). The 21j isn't too bad, but try to service it or mod it and you risk the chance of screwing it up. To me 21j is good if you want to wear a watch and when it starts to crap out, you trash it and get another watch. The clone/eta is if you want to keep it and service/mod it.

Yes, it is a better design. But my point is exactly that. The Chinese factories didn't have any input on the design of either movement, they copied what was already there. I think Bonesey may have come closest to the truth, in saying that the tooling costs, machining standards etc. are better for the 2836. I still can't see where $100 goes though.

Some posters have missed what I meant in my question. I'm not asking which is the better movement, I know the answer to that. I'm asking why copying a good design allows them to charge twice as much as when they copy a mediocre design.

Try this analogy. If a Rolex Submariner costs say $7000 dollars new, and a PP Nautilus costs $28,000, or roughly four times as much, does it mean on that basis that $250 dollars for our sub rep equates to $1000 dollars for a Nautilus rep? Does it hell! It's no harder to copy (prolly easier), and won't sell in anything like the same numbers even if the price is the same.

 

[set2374]

I think this is a pretty simple question to answer. The miyota 8215 is a great workhorse. It's simple, reliable and cheap to produce. A new, gen miyota costs around $45 retail at Offrei. There are a number of factories that produce clones of the miyota 8215. Some are better quality than others. These clones cost around $20 retail...probably $3 to $7 wholesale in china. The ETA 2824/2836 is a far more complex movement (at least compared to a 21J).

A gen ETA or Selitta SW200 costs around $175-200 jn the current market, figure $100.00-$125 wholesale in bulk. The ETA 2824/36 clone in our reps is manufactured by two factories in China, and both are built to a reasonably high standards. These ETA clones cost between $75 and $100 retail and likely are around $20-$40 wholesale. Clearly, the actual cost to the manufacturer is significantly higher with ETA clones in real terms, although not as bjg as the $100 price differential may suggest.

The price differential can be explained once other factors are considered. The eta and eta clones have a different case than the 21J clones because the crown, tube, dial and hands are all built to different measurements. In addition, the 21j version is always the volume selle--outselling other versions in multiples on almost all watches. Remember, the primary customer for these watches are consumers in the chinese home market and they are nothing like the typical RWI member. So, economies of scale drive down the total production costs for 21j equipped watches. In fact, the manufacturers and TD's have much better margins on he 21j watches than watches with virtually any other movement. Anyone of them would prefer to sell 4 or 5 21j subs than 1 AP ROO.

In short, while the total profit per watch may be slightly higher on the eta clones, the margins are actually lower. The 21js may be a good value, but don't think the price difference between the eta clones and 21j's is intended so manufacturers and TD can take advantage of consumers. Your fortunate to be able to buy a sub-c with eta clone for ~$200.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[KBH]

The factories buy in bulk and probably pay less than $10 for the A21j and probably pay a little more than $50 for the ETA clone. By the time they add their markup and the dealer adds his you're getting close to $100 differential. Plus, as mentioned, most of the ETA/clone pieces are made with higher quality parts.

I don't see anything strange or nefarious about it. Also, in most cases I would always go with the ETA or clone version.

 

[Rudy40]

Yes, it is a better design. But my point is exactly that. The Chinese factories didn't have any input on the design of either movement, they copied what was already there. I think Bonesey may have come closest to the truth, in saying that the tooling costs, machining standards etc. are better for the 2836. I still can't see where $100 goes though.

Some posters have missed what I meant in my question. I'm not asking which is the better movement, I know the answer to that. I'm asking why copying a good design allows them to charge twice as much as when they copy a mediocre design.

Try this analogy. If a Rolex Submariner costs say $7000 dollars new, and a PP Nautilus costs $28,000, or roughly four times as much, does it mean on that basis that $250 dollars for our sub rep equates to $1000 dollars for a Nautilus rep? Does it hell! It's no harder to copy (prolly easier), and won't sell in anything like the same numbers even if the price is the same.

I see what your saying.
Same deal with AP! I know theres alot of work that go's in these. But the AP reps are high dollar. I always assumed that it took more time and tooling to make these AP's.

 

[davylloyd]

I think this is a pretty simple question to answer. The miyota 8215 is a great workhorse. It's simple, reliable and cheap to produce. A new, gen miyota costs around $45 retail at Offrei. There are a number of factories that produce clones of the miyota 8215. Some are better quality than others. These clones cost around $20 retail...probably $3 to $7 wholesale in china. The ETA 2824/2836 is a far more complex movement (at least compared to a 21J).

A gen ETA or Selitta SW200 costs around $175-200 jn the current market, figure $100.00-$125 wholesale in bulk. The ETA 2824/36 clone in our reps is manufactured by two factories in China, and both are built to a reasonably high standards. These ETA clones cost between $75 and $100 retail and likely are around $20-$40 wholesale. Clearly, the actual cost to the manufacturer is significantly higher with ETA clones in real terms, although not as bjg as the $100 price differential may suggest.

The price differential can be explained once other factors are considered. The eta and eta clones have a different case than the 21J clones because the crown, tube, dial and hands are all built to different measurements. In addition, the 21j version is always the volume selle--outselling other versions in multiples on almost all watches. Remember, the primary customer for these watches are consumers in the chinese home market and they are nothing like the typical RWI member. So, economies of scale drive down the total production costs for 21j equipped watches. In fact, the manufacturers and TD's have much better margins on he 21j watches than watches with virtually any other movement. Anyone of them would prefer to sell 4 or 5 21j subs than 1 AP ROO.

In short, while the total profit per watch may be slightly higher on the eta clones, the margins are actually lower. The 21js may be a good value, but don't think the price difference between the eta clones and 21j's is intended so manufacturers and TD can take advantage of consumers. Your fortunate to be able to buy a sub-c with eta clone for ~$200.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks for this, I think this is a well thought out and well explained answer. :thumbsup: I'd differ on just one point, though. I don't believe the ETA is a far more complex design. Better executed, better design definitely, but I doubt if the component count would differ by more than 1%.

 

[erikkr]

The artificial relative shortage of the ETA's has inflated the price . The clones follow this example.
The 21j in a 20 USD mushroom costs 5 USD or less.
I have an EYKI with a Seiko skeleton where the movement can cost max 7 USD (there is also a Chinese clone of that movement.)
The ETA clones are better, and can cost 5 times more, but not 10 times.
Now, if you compare the value of the used materials in relation to the price of a gen, a rep is still a bargain.

 

[smokiedabong]

I'm looking right now at a 21j side by side with a 2836 and it's definitely not the same. The 2836 uses better materials, better cut bridges with more angles, better bearings etc. All those small extra cuts and improvements take time to produce and increase the manufacturing cost.

 

[davylloyd]

The factories buy in bulk and probably pay less than $10 for the A21j and probably pay a little more than $50 for the ETA clone. By the time they add their markup and the dealer adds his you're getting close to $100 differential. Plus, as mentioned, most of the ETA/clone pieces are made with higher quality parts.

I don't see anything strange or nefarious about it. Also, in most cases I would always go with the ETA or clone version.

I'll say it again. I'm not comparing the A2836 with the A21J, I know the difference.

I'm not asking what movement people would go for. I get that too.

I'm not suggesting that there is anything nefarious about what dealers charge us for our reps. It's simple supply and demand, and if I didn't think they were great value, I wouldn't be here.

If Cousins in the UK sell the proper DG2813 for $40, and the genuine Swiss 2836.2 (loose pack) for $160, ie. a difference of $120, how the hell can there be the almost the same price difference between the clones?

BTW, not that I'm in the know, but do you really believe the factories pay over $50 for an A2836? I don't.