Forget Cheap Reps: Caveat Emptor

[srmd22]

I have to say, screw cheap Reps. Nothing but a headache. I posted about my first rep buys in many years (I bought one like 8 years ago for 80 bucks, before discovering this site), and they sure looked cool.

Problem is, one had a $#%@'d up bracelet, so I sent it in for repair/replacement to timeshops. That was in the $150 to $175 range. The other looked great. After wearing it for a day, I noticed it was off by 6 minutes/day. WTF? Well I didn't want to complain to the seller too much, so I sent this one to one of the forum guys for inspection/regulation. He worked hard at it, but could not get the asian 21j POS to any better then 3-4minutes/day fast. Well, that does NOT cut it for any watch, no matter how cheap, or what country it is made, legal or not. It is a watch for crying out loud. 4 minutes/day fast?

I laugh when I read this: "Even gens have problems." No, not nearly at the rate these cheaper reps (and for all I know, the pricier ones, as well) do. The other funny statement is that noobs have expectations that are too high. Listen, expecting any watch over $50 to not have its hands fall off, or the bracelet be bent up, or to keep time to within a minute a day, is not really unreasonable. There is no freaking excuse for that kind of crappy quality control-- other then "I can get away with it."

I certainly will not be wasting any more more money on anything in the 21j price range. I don't care that you might get one that keeps as good time and is reliable as an Asian Eta, or even a Swiss Eta. There is a damn excellent chance you will not. For me it was 0/2. Not an impressive sample.

I want people to see this and be warned. Buying from a recommended dealer is great, because they will take care of you when you get the cheap POS you ordered. But you will almost certainly need them to do that, and you will have to go to the hassle of sending the damn thing back to China, wait while it gets fixed, and then wait for it to get back to you. Do you want to spend 3 or 4 months messing around to obtain a $150 replica?

This may not apply to the >$200 reps, I don't know yet. It doesn't apply to experts who buy a case planning on modding the whole thing, putting in gen mov'ts, dials, who knows what.

But if you think your gonna get a nice quick easy purchase of a $60 "special offer" "beginmariner" or whatever, I say this: Ha! Good luck to ya. 0/2. That's what I got.

I've heard all the excuses, which are a combo of blaming the victim, low standards and giving the cartel sellers a pass. If 20 to 40% of some product you are selling sucks, you know what? Maybe you shouldn't be selling it. I don't know if that is an accurate percentage, but guess what? 0/2. That's 100% for me. That is my new mantra, 0/2. Maybe I picked the wrong model, or the wrong price point, but I just keep thinking 0/2, for a total price of about $330. That $330 bought me this many functional watches with no significant defects: 0.

I haven't given up yet (I am a slow learner). I have an order from a forum member, that I have high hopes for, because he has applied his wisdom and experience (considerably greater then mine, as you might guess) to it's acquisition some time ago, and has had it serviced and water-sealed after the fact. It has an Eta, and so is in a different league then my first attempts, in that regard.

I am also interested in BK's offerings, but again, in a different league. Even if these new experiments pan out, I will not excuse selling inexpensive products with the excuse that it is ok that they don't work, fall apart, or have significant physico-functional defects because they are inexpensive. I may even end up ranting about it at some point.:biglaugh:

I know I am far from the first to express these views, but they need more expressing. There are a lot of people advocating the 21j level or reps, and I am sure some of them work out fine. The fact is, QA sucks at this level (and I don't yet know if it improves with the clones or etas- some say it does). I almost got a 21j SOSF. Couple of people said they have one, love it. BUT, a couple of people posted/PM'd said they got one, was crap. Stopped working completely after one day, etc. All from forum approved sellers, of course. That saves you from serious harm, but not from serious inconvenience and time wastage, and extra shipping charges.

Sure, if you are getting into a "project" watch, that may be a whole different ball game. But you should be able to purchase one of these special dealio's at the intro price etc, and still get something that works, and is free of major defects.

So there you have, my (rather worthless, admittedly) opinion: caveat emptor.

 

[borntoraisehogs]

I think you may have saved some people from learning the hard way. The rep's improvement in appearance is amazing, but if they can't use a movement as good as the Miyota , Citizen or whatever is in the Invicta 8926, it is a shame. If I was sure I could get a movement as good as the twenty five jewel ETA(2836?), type in my Invicta 9937, I probably would have bought a Sub this weekend.

 

[kohanjj]

As a relative newbie too, I'm still playing in the shallow end of the Rep pool, and have been mostly sticking with the A21J movements until I find what works for me.

I went 0/1 before I changed up the game plan in terms of buying reps. Mine wasn't just bent and broken, but it was a bent and broken version of a completely different watch than what I ordered!

I'm not sure where you are located, srmd22, but what I did after that lession is find a Trusted Dealer and Member Resellers in my country (CONUS, in my case) to deal with almost exclusively when buying.

My Trusted Dealer of choice is WackoBirdKeeper, and while I did get one bad piece (that we're 99% sure was damaged in shipping) I was able to return it to WBK and have it corrected / replaced within the course of 5 days, including shipping. WBK doesn't drop ship, inspects and tests all of his watches, and the watch you see in the photos is the watch you will get. AND he will try to prevent you from shooting yourself in the foot, as well. Case in point, I had cash in hand (errr, PayPal) and was hot and heavy to get a blue Omega SMP. Did he have them in stock? Yes Would he sell one to me? No, as they weren't meeting his QC requirements. Would he sell me one for cheaper than list, and not worry about support or QC issues? No, as they weren't meeting his QC requirements.

I've seen different Trusted Dealers here that are located in CONUS, in the UK, and other areas and I guess my .02 cents worth would be to find someone close to you, that you get along with, so that when troubles come up (as they will with inexpensive 21J watches) you have some relatively close support.

As you correctly point out, it's a buyer-beware game here, but I feel that a lot of that can be handled by knowing who to deal with.

Thanks for the input!

NOTE: Sorry if this sounded like an info-mercial for WBK, it wasn't meant to be, but I used my experiences with him to point out what could happen, even in the A21J arena, when you find someone 'nearby' that you can deal with.

 

[Meta4]

The fact is, QA sucks at this level (and I don't yet know if it improves with the clones or etas- some say it does).

No .. the fact is - QA doesn't happen with drop shipped reps.
It doesn't matter what the price. Cheapies can be fine and expensive ones might turn out to be a lump of scrap.

With respect your sample size of 2 doesn't carry much weight.
Yes, you lucked out but there are many more members that have acquired fine watches for low prices. I haven't ever heard anyone with a negative comment on any of Fakemaster's creations and they are far from expensive.

 

[jkwhyd]

@srmd22: Your batting average of 0 for 2 isn't very good. As a long time collector and reader of forum threads, I think the average of catastrophic failure rate is more like around 10% - 20%. Many times it is the luck of the draw.

It is true that you can buy an Invicta for well under $100 and get a watch that is water resistant to 200 M and keeps reasonable time. As far as I know all reps have problems and are 'leaky'.

This is a hobby that requires a lot of patience. There is not one single one rep that is 100% like gen - all reps have defects. Many of the old timers have learned to mod their watches and have them serviced so they are more like gens and are more reliable.

In general, unless the watch is a total mess, I don't send them back to China - it is not worth the expenses and effort. Instead, try to find a local watch maker who would work on minor problems. Better yet try to learn to do some of the work yourself - after all, this is a hobby.

If you are a perfectionist, this hobby is not for you unless you are willing to spend money getting your watches modded and serviced. Even then you will need patience and be willing to overlook minor imperfections.

If you are not willing to do that, you should stick to gens.

On the other hand, most of the imperfections discussed in this forum will not be seen or known to 99% of the general public. So just enjoy your toys and try not to be too anal. To me, the purpose of this hobby is try to get your watch closest to a gen while knowing all the time it will never get there. in the meantime you get to play with your watches.

jk

 

[jmd33]

@srmd22: Your batting average of 0 for 2 isn't very good. As a long time collector and reader of forum threads, I think the average of catastrophic failure rate is more like around 10% - 20%. Many times it is the luck of the draw.

It is true that you can buy an Invicta for well under $100 and get a watch that is water resistant to 200 M and keeps reasonable time. As far as I know all reps have problems and are 'leaky'.

This is a hobby that requires a lot of patience. There is not one single one rep that is 100% like gen - all reps have defects. Many of the old timers have learned to mod their watches and have them serviced so they are more like gens and are more reliable.

In general, unless the watch is a total mess, I don't send them back to China - it is not worth the expenses and effort. Instead, try to find a local watch maker who would work on minor problems. Better yet try to learn to do some of the work yourself - after all, this is a hobby.

If you are a perfectionist, this hobby is not for you unless you are willing to spend money getting your watches modded and serviced. Even then you will need patience and be willing to overlook minor imperfections.

If you are not willing to do that, you should stick to gens.

On the other hand, most of the imperfections discussed in this forum will not be seen or known to 99% of the general public. So just enjoy your toys and try not to be too anal. To me, the purpose of this hobby is try to get your watch closest to a gen while knowing all the time it will never get there. in the meantime you get to play with your watches.

jk

Right on the money (no pun). I've gotten my 21j's in COSC just by messing with them. To buy a $3,000 - $5,000 watch for $100 of course it's a POS.

The Trusted dealers are "Trusted" because when you send them money they will send you a watch. Beyond that, you pick your dealer then your watch. Sometimes I go with a dropshipper for ease (knowing the risk) other times you go with someone you know QC's the watch (even then, some things are beyond their control).

Of course you don't sent a $100 POS watch back to China - gen or rep. I just got an Alpha PO homage that has "issues" did I send it back? Hell no! (what a waste of time and money). I can just order a $10 movement, throw it in or have it installed - problem solved.

This is truly a hobby and needs to be approached in that manner. Otherwise, there is always Target and Macy's.

 

[levelmanroger]

After playing in this hobby for a while most people stop buying the cheapies for a myriad of reasons.
However, QC does not exist at the factories, and only minimally at a few dealers. So you WILL get crappy watches from time to time at any price point.
WBK is an excellent option for lower end watches because he has them in his hands and can at least make sure it's running with no glaring flaws. Or buy from BK or Spinmaster for total build QC. (I kniw I left out other great modder/builders, but you get the point)

 

[bonecollector]

I'm 1 for 2. Bought the first, ran fine and looked great. Had it for about a year, sold that one, bought another just recently and never got to find out how it ran because it was awful looking - looked like a $30 rep you buy on a street corner. Sent that one back, now will buy a 2836 clone from a dealer who checks the watch and sends photos. I'm done with both 21J movements (even though I haven't had a bad experience, I don't like the apparent failure rate) and drop shipments. Not worth the hassle to me.

 

[TheLoveOfBotham]

First of all, +1 jkwhyd; you expressed my thoughts perfectly there.

I too started buying 21j models to see what suited me, and ended up switching up to clone and eta reps after I realised the relative merits and pitfalls of both. Amongst my 21j collection, I am 3/4, and clones, 4/4 in terms of success rate. But I too don't see the value in trying to ship a $100 rep back to China for a repair exchange, and learned how to fix things myself. I bought tools and everything!

The thing is, in any hobby, you have to take the rough with the smooth. Failure is what makes success so rewarding. And sometimes we all have to learn the hard way that cheap isn't always good...

 

[romulous]

I am a newbie that knows nothing

I am a newbie and I wanted to minimize my exposure to grief while seeking to get the look of a very expensive watch at a very low price. Knowing nothing I played it safe and went with a BK WM9 YM. I found the purchase to be flawless,quick and enjoyable. Maybe in time I might gain the knowledge to be able to get the same look and quality for less money and than I will be able to enjoy this hobby even more. But until than I know that there are some of you who might think that I payed more than I had to. But for me to avoid all of the nightmares that I have been reading about, now that IS PRICELESS. As I learn more I will work my way down the price spectrum armed with some knowledge. But I will still keep my fingers crossed, carry my rabit foot and not walk under any ladders on the day I place my order LOL

 

[srmd22]

It's true that there is the hobby aspect. I did send my cheapie sub to be regulated, but the mov't just was no good. I wanted to switch the mov't but I couldn't find anyone in the U.S. to do it. Maybe I should just order one and do it myself, but I have no idea how. It would be a learning experience. Probably is fun. However, it will also turn a $45 rep into a $200 project, once you add in the $12 I already spent to try to have it regulated and the, what, ? $80 for a rolex back opener if the sticky ball doesn't work, and who knows what other tools needed to muck around in the case, plus the $$ for the movement, which still might not work any better then the one I remove.

Not saying it is not worthwhile, just not sure if that is how I want to spend my time and $ just at this moment. It is cheaper and easier to send it on back to China. These dealers claim they do NOT drop ship, and even so, they have a role mediating issues between the factory and the end user-- they simply should not expect a 6 min/day fast watch to be accepted by the buyer-- hobbyist or not. It is perfectly fair to expect them to take it back and fix it or replace it. If hobbyists constantly let them get away with it, they will just keep on selling them, instead of insisting the factories ratchet up the QA a tad-- that is the market system.

However, the idea mentioned above about finding a CONUS dealer is a good one, so I may just try that approach, with someone like WBK (I hadn't seen his link in the dealer section).

I should point out I don't care about small imperfections related to accuracy of reproduction (eg. slightly off date-font, sub-dial spacing, off-color dials/numbers, inaccuracies of design like little "tells" etc) or leaky seals. I am talking about scratched up bezels, broken bracelets, non-functional movements, that kind of thing.

Over all though, I agree, it is all part of the learning process, and part of the fun/challenge of the hobby. But I still think the middle-men can be held to a slightly higher standard with regard to these inexpensive reps, and thereby transfer that standard back to the manufacturers. There is no harm in progress, and a little pressure from the buyer end, over time, might help in that regard.

 

[scottosaurus]

Bump

Great discussion here. I truly enjoy this hobby. There have been times when I seriously considered buying a gen, but pulled back because owning 10 reps seems like a lot more fun.

 

[prsist]

Buy a 21j and when it dies throw it away or swap the movement. Movts are real cheap.
You have to get all other movts serviced if you want any history with them. You might get lucky and get a couple years out of them but I am 1 for 4. 2 7750s died within 6 months and a gen ETA 2836 died within 9 months.

Rule of thumb (If the watch is a keeper):
- for ETA movts factor in $100 for a service
- for 7750 movys factor in $200 for a service

otherwise stick with 21j, whom ever said hobbies are cheap lied.

 

[srmd22]

I think now, after having read through some of these posts, when I get my LV sub back, if it still isn't keeping time, I am going to try my hand at purchasing a 21j mov't and replacing it myself, and then try to regulate it.

The whole idea is to be able to play around with 10 or 15 reps instead of one gen, as scottosaurus pointed out. I think a l of people on the forum have both gens and reps, but you might have more variety by supplementing gens with reps.

 

[miguel365]

I am newsbie and i get 4 replicas from now, my best is My PO from Narika who "wear" 21j, nice finish and very great movement (no need adjustment) , this is my daily watch from 2months more or less. It is normal to get what we pay for, but some watch for 100$ is very diferent as the same watch found from another dealer (maybe due to QC), i think in this case 1 + 1 is not =2....

 

[prsist]

I am newsbie and i get 4 replicas from now, my best is My PO from Narika who "wear" 21j, nice finish and very great movement (no need adjustment) , this is my daily watch from 2months more or less. It is normal to get what we pay for, but some watch for 100$ is very diferent as the same watch found from another dealer (maybe due to QC), i think in this case 1 + 1 is not =2....

The narikka PO 21j is brilliant. I had mine for almost a year and it was almost as accurate as my gen Breitling Aerospace w/ SQ movt. Hell of a watch but I never seen one with an properly aligned bezel.

 

[Zack Morris]

I have always wondered why people on RWI try to add the cost of servicing these watches into the cost of the watch when selling them. Now I see: they don't FUNCTION when you get them, LOL

 

[srmd22]

I have always wondered why people on RWI try to add the cost of servicing these watches into the cost of the watch when selling them. Now I see: they don't FUNCTION when you get them, LOL

Exactly! I figure now, anything from a cartel, and maybe anything else too, figure in the cost of shipping it back and forth a few times, at least. With a good seller, that's all it will take, because they'll get it working or replace it (I am still waiting on my LV sub and GMT, but I think these guys are pretty good about it). Also, figure on a half a year of screwing around before you have the damn thing working. Well, that's an exaggeration, but at least 3 months, maybe 4-- a few weeks to get the thing, a week or two to realize it is kiboshed, another few weeks to send it back, and another few weeks for it to be repaired and returned. And then, the possibility of repeating that process-- no joke, I have seen posts here (and at other forums) where after the whole repair/replace process back and forth from Europe/US/Canada to China was done, the watch STILL didn't work, or wasn't fixed correctly!

As one gentlemen remarked above: this is a hobby that requires patience.

 

[srmd22]

Buy a 21j and when it dies throw it away or swap the movement. Movts are real cheap.
You have to get all other movts serviced if you want any history with them. You might get lucky and get a couple years out of them but I am 1 for 4. 2 7750s died within 6 months and a gen ETA 2836 died within 9 months.

Rule of thumb (If the watch is a keeper):
- for ETA movts factor in $100 for a service
- for 7750 movys factor in $200 for a service

otherwise stick with 21j, whom ever said hobbies are cheap lied.

Yeah, but where the hell do you get 'em serviced? Most of the jewelers around here are not capable of it, and the ones that are will rip you off. I have a Getat that need a new spring (not the main, the other little one), and the bastard charged me $85 for it-- after he did the work!! I was thinking, $20 or $30!!

Like I said my LV sub was 6 min off, and could not be regulated further (I sent it to a RepGeek member with a good reputation for doing this stuff). His price was very cheap, but still, a waste of time and money.

 

[prsist]

There are a handful of members who do the work. Yeah, locally the try to ass rape you.