Calatrava 5227: ZF vs 3KF

[OzJack]

I've been looking into small watches (under 39mm) for a while, and I've narrowed my choices down to the Patek Phillip Calatrava 5227G-001 (white gold with ivory dial).

My research (e.g. a review by RWI user Godfathar here and photos provided by RWI user here) suggest that the 5227 from ZF (V3) is the best rep currently available in the market, arguably achieving the NWBIG status. However, I understand 3KF released its own 5227 around May 2021. Whilst there is an RWI thread on the 3KF 5227 here, there has not been many reviews of the 3KF 5227 in that thread. Google does not reveal any other reviews as well.

As for pricing, the 3KF is listed for $498, a 13.70% preimum over the $438 ZF.

Has anyone seen reviews of the relatively new 3KF 5227? And if you have, would you say it's worth the $60 premium over the ZF 5227, bearing in mind that the ZF 5227 is already a very well-executed rep?

Thank everyone!

 

[Peguine]

the 5227 3KF commands a premium because it has the 324SC clone movement. so when you pop that officer caseback you'll see the clone movement not the decorated miyota 9015. I've heard that ZF is more accurate in terms of dial printing but to each his own. I'm a 3KF fanboy

 

[srhoque]

Personally, I would go 3K because of clone movement. I own the Yellow Gold 3K 5227 and have put in a gen Patek leather strap. Absolutely love the build quality of this watch, comparable to a ZF (got the 5296 ZF). My only issue is that 3K DW could be better (anyways I will but the keylog/binone DW when it is ready).

 

[soliloqueen]

In RG and YG the 3K 5227 is closer because of the movement, thickness (it's much thinner than the ZF and a fraction of a MM different from gen) and correct minute indicator dot sizes but somehow they managed to get the date wheel color wrong on the black dial version which is absurd at this price point and clocks the watch from feet away. 3K RG and YG are nearing NWBIG in appearance at least. All 4 from ZF are at least first class. My only issue with any of them is the potential of the gold plating rubbing off, and of the unknown longevity of the clone movement in the 3K. The rolex clone movements on the market turned out to have serious durability issues after 2-3 years, so we'll have to see. I think that's the reason many people aren't buying and reviewing them. They're all waiting for someone else to buy them to see how it turns out. I am planning on being one of those guinea pigs for all of you shortly...

 

[OzJack]

I did more research after I posted this (watched many comparison videos and review videos done by Chinese dealers), and my findings align with what everyone here is saying. I'm only looking at the White Gold 5227 because the Rose Gold and Yellow Gold versions are only plated, meaning they will flake off with wear and tear.

Here's the summary for the white gold 5227:

ZF 5227 (White Gold)
Pros:

• Excellent "raised-ink" font for the logo on the dial.
• Excellent date and date window execution, i.e. the date fully fills the date window.
• Miyota 9015 movement means reliability and easy servicing.

Cons:

• Movement is a dead and instant giveaway. Compared to the real 324 movement, the fake rubies are too red (compare this to the purple/violet real ruby on the balance wheel), the balance wheel is bigger and in a different location, the middle of the movement is much bigger, the "PP" stamp is different. That said though, I didn't realise this until I was deep into my research. But now that I know what to look for, I can see it 100% of the time.

3KF 5227 (White Gold)
Pros:

• Clone 324 movement used by other 3KF Patek watches. Much more similar to the real 324 movement, and I believe all the rubies used are functional and of the correct colour. I would not be able to tell the difference at first glance, and would probably need to be told outright that it's a clone to be able to spot the minute differences, e.g. finishing.
• In China, the 3KF apparently comes with a higher quality alligator strap, and is much better than the calf strap on the ZF. Not sure if this is true for TDs. I looked at TrustyTime's listing and the listing says the 3KF comes with the same calf strap.

Cons

• Movement reliability may be an issue but note that this clone movement has been market-tested for some time now in other 3KF watches.
• May be difficult to service the clone movement. I'm not sure if any watchmaker can service a 324, or a clone 324. Need input from experienced members here to clarify this.
• Font of the date is slightly smaller than ZF's, resulting in a less "filled out" date window. On the wrist though, it might not be noticeable at all.
• Font for the logo is slightly less raised and less bold than ZF's, but again probably only detectable on a side-by-side comparison.

 

[soliloqueen]

I did more research after I posted this (watched many comparison videos and review videos done by Chinese dealers), and my findings align with what everyone here is saying. I'm only looking at the White Gold 5227 because the Rose Gold and Yellow Gold versions are only plated, meaning they will flake off with wear and tear.

Here's the summary for the white gold 5227:

ZF 5227 (White Gold)
Pros:

• Excellent "raised-ink" font for the logo on the dial.
• Excellent date and date window execution, i.e. the date fully fills the date window.
• Miyota 9015 movement means reliability and easy servicing.

Cons:

• Movement is a dead and instant giveaway. Compared to the real 324 movement, the fake rubies are too red (compare this to the purple/violet real ruby on the balance wheel), the balance wheel is bigger and in a different location, the middle of the movement is much bigger, the "PP" stamp is different. That said though, I didn't realise this until I was deep into my research. But now that I know what to look for, I can see it 100% of the time.

3KF 5227 (White Gold)
Pros:

• Clone 324 movement used by other 3KF Patek watches. Much more similar to the real 324 movement, and I believe all the rubies used are functional and of the correct colour. I would not be able to tell the difference at first glance, and would probably need to be told outright that it's a clone to be able to spot the minute differences, e.g. finishing.
• In China, the 3KF apparently comes with a higher quality alligator strap, and is much better than the calf strap on the ZF. Not sure if this is true for TDs. I looked at TrustyTime's listing and the listing says the 3KF comes with the same calf strap.

Cons

• Movement reliability may be an issue but note that this clone movement has been market-tested for some time now in other 3KF watches.
• May be difficult to service the clone movement. I'm not sure if any watchmaker can service a 324, or a clone 324. Need input from experienced members here to clarify this.
• Font of the date is slightly smaller than ZF's, resulting in a less "filled out" date window. On the wrist though, it might not be noticeable at all.
• Font for the logo is slightly less raised and less bold than ZF's, but again probably only detectable on a side-by-side comparison.

Good observations. AFAIK the printing on the gen isn't that good. From the higher-res pictures I've seen, the logo printing itself is actually better on the ZF than the gen. The sputtered-looking text on the 3K isn't a bug, it's a feature.

When I was picking which one to get, I actually hunted down and perspective-corrected and aligned several photos of each to difference hunt. I spent 8 or 9 straight hours on it. The biggest on-face difference between the two is that the ZF's minute indicators are the wrong size. They're like twice as big as they're supposed to be. Overall, I think they're both good clones. I chose the 3KF personally.

Another thing to note is that a lot of factories are still iterating pretty rapidly on these PP models. A V3 3KF or the next version of the ZF might be announced soon.

 

[Peguine]

I did more research after I posted this (watched many comparison videos and review videos done by Chinese dealers), and my findings align with what everyone here is saying. I'm only looking at the White Gold 5227 because the Rose Gold and Yellow Gold versions are only plated, meaning they will flake off with wear and tear.

Here's the summary......
[/LIST]

so far the 324sc movement has proven to be easy to service and maintain. remember that although the 324sc is a patek design its also an entry level movement no hacking. Pretty much any rep watchmaker can service this movement for you. Actually why not consider a YG or RG if you like it, cos when you send it to service you could get it thick plated as well unless you really prefer the WG model.

 

[OzJack]

Good observations. AFAIK the printing on the gen isn't that good. From the higher-res pictures I've seen, the logo printing itself is actually better on the ZF than the gen. The sputtered-looking text on the 3K isn't a bug, it's a feature.

When I was picking which one to get, I actually hunted down and perspective-corrected and aligned several photos of each to difference hunt. I spent 8 or 9 straight hours on it. The biggest on-face difference between the two is that the ZF's minute indicators are the wrong size. They're like twice as big as they're supposed to be. Overall, I think they're both good clones. I chose the 3KF personally.

Another thing to note is that a lot of factories are still iterating pretty rapidly on these PP models. A V3 3KF or the next version of the ZF might be announced soon.

ZF's 5227 minute indicators twice as big? Are you talking about the tiny dots on the outer ring of the dial? From the video reviews I've seen they seem to be the same size, but granted I did not pay any particular attention to these indicators. I will now pay more attention to these in my research.

I believe ZF's 5227 was released in 2020, and 3KF's 5227 was released May 2021, so a new iteration from 3KF seems unlikely. A new iteration from ZF however may be on the cards, but I'm not sure what else they can improve other than the decoration on the movement.

so far the 324sc movement has proven to be easy to service and maintain. remember that although the 324sc is a patek design its also an entry level movement no hacking. Pretty much any rep watchmaker can service this movement for you. Actually why not consider a YG or RG if you like it, cos when you send it to service you could get it thick plated as well unless you really prefer the WG model.

I do like the Rose Gold, but the flaking and additional care/maintenance required for it is too much for me. Besides, a rose gold watch might be too dressy to be a daily watch!

 

[soliloqueen]

ZF's 5227 minute indicators twice as big? Are you talking about the tiny dots on the outer ring of the dial? From the video reviews I've seen they seem to be the same size, but granted I did not pay any particular attention to these indicators. I will now pay more attention to these in my research.

I believe ZF's 5227 was released in 2020, and 3KF's 5227 was released May 2021, so a new iteration from 3KF seems unlikely. A new iteration from ZF however may be on the cards, but I'm not sure what else they can improve other than the decoration on the movement.



I do like the Rose Gold, but the flaking and additional care/maintenance required for it is too much for me. Besides, a rose gold watch might be too dressy to be a daily watch!

Yep! Here! Compar-O-Vision

3KF is already on V2 of their calatrava. V1 was last year, V2 was a few months ago.

 

[OzJack]

I think the ZF image you have in the comparison GIF is from a previous version, not the latest ZF 5227.

A Chinese video I found (link here) did a comparison between a ZF and 3KF 5227 (white gold is the ZF, yellow gold is the 3KF). A comparison of the dial can be found at 05:23, and a comparison of the movement at 08:40.

In the video, the reviewer's opinion is the same as what I've outlined above in my pros and cons list. He believes the dial on the ZF 5227 is much superior whereas the 3KF 5227 has a movement that matches much more closely to a genuine 324. If you look at the movement comparison at 08:40, the difference is truly day and night.

I have done a lot more research since I posted this, and I think I have convinced myself to get the rose gold!

EDIT: I have found rather conclusive evidence that the photos on product listings may not be photos of the actual watches. For example, if you look at the product listing for the ZF 5227 at PureTimeWatch (link here), you can see the photos of the movement is not the movement of ZF's V3 5227, it's the movement of ZF's previous 5227s! The "PP" stamp in the listing is "in line" with the detailing whereas the "PP" stamp of ZF's V3 5227 is in between the detailing. Look at these photos: https://imgur.com/a/p2B9i0m

 

[soliloqueen]

I think the ZF image you have in the comparison GIF is from a previous version, not the latest ZF 5227.

A Chinese video I found (link here) did a comparison between a ZF and 3KF 5227 (white gold is the ZF, yellow gold is the 3KF). A comparison of the dial can be found at 05:23, and a comparison of the movement at 08:40.

In the video, the reviewer's opinion is the same as what I've outlined above in my pros and cons list. He believes the dial on the ZF 5227 is much superior whereas the 3KF 5227 has a movement that matches much more closely to a genuine 324. If you look at the movement comparison at 08:40, the difference is truly day and night.

I have done a lot more research since I posted this, and I think I have convinced myself to get the rose gold!

EDIT: I have found rather conclusive evidence that the photos on product listings may not be photos of the actual watches. For example, if you look at the product listing for the ZF 5227 at PureTimeWatch (link here), you can see the photos of the movement is not the movement of ZF's V3 5227, it's the movement of ZF's previous 5227s! The "PP" stamp in the listing is "in line" with the detailing whereas the "PP" stamp of ZF's V3 5227 is in between the detailing. Look at these photos: https://imgur.com/a/p2B9i0m

Movement and font revisions aside, the minute dots are visibly too big in the video you posted as well, but like I said, this is splitting hairs ofr sure.

 

[soliloqueen]

I do personally feel better about the ZF as a watch. Missing the datewheel color doesn't speak well for 3K's overall attention to detail, but I really buy watches more for the movements than the faces so it's 3K for me. If I bought the 5227 I probably wouldn't wear it, it would just replace my current movement-staring watch.

 

[Peguine]

OR or get both and transplant the 3k movement into the zf HAHAHA

 

[Accord11]

Personally, I would go 3K because of clone movement. I own the Yellow Gold 3K 5227 and have put in a gen Patek leather strap. Absolutely love the build quality of this watch, comparable to a ZF (got the 5296 ZF). My only issue is that 3K DW could be better (anyways I will but the keylog/binone DW when it is ready).

Can you post photos? Thank you


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[Accord11]

I have all 3 colors of the ZF 5227… I have white gold black dial, yellow gold cream dial, and white gold white dial. I’ll post photos tomorrow or the day after. It is superior to 3KF IMO. The 3KF movement is undeniably better than the motors on ZF, but the rest of the watch on the ZF is better executed
Than 3KF.


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[soliloqueen]

I have all 3 colors of the ZF 5227… I have white gold black dial, yellow gold cream dial, and white gold white dial. I’ll post photos tomorrow or the day after. It is superior to 3KF IMO. The 3KF movement is undeniably better than the motors on ZF, but the rest of the watch on the ZF is better executed
Than 3KF.


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I agree with accord, closeness does not equal quality. If they've got a whole clone movement for the same price as the ZF, "where in the budget did they cut into to make room for that?" is the big question. I'd be really curious to see pictures from everyone and of course to hold them in my hands.

 

[OzJack]

I'm definitely interested to see some user photos of any of these 5227s. I'm personally leaning towards the ZF. It's a better watch (dial and bracelet) for US$60 less. Although the movement on the 3KF looks much closer to genuine, at the end of the day it is still not genuine. On this point, I think the ZF would be able to convince anyone that its movement befits a watch worth tens of thousands of dollars, much like 3KF's movement.

I think the rose gold matches the overall aesthetics of the 5227 better, but since I'm planning on wearing the 5227 as my daily, I think the non-plated white gold is the more practical and sensible option.

Looking forward to some photos of these incredible watches!

 

[Kaptajnen2000]

Does anyone have an idea of how much the weight is deviating from the gen?

 

[JonathanLing91]

Does anyone have an idea of how much the weight is deviating from the gen?

I’ve heard the Gen 5227 is a very light watch so I’d imagine not by much tbh. Don’t have exact numbers for you tho unfortunately


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[Kaptajnen2000]

Does anyone have an idea of how much the weight is deviating from the gen?

Interesting, as gold is considerably heavier than steel... question is if its really possible to tell the difference unless you have a gen to compare with.