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A watch addict's trilemma..please do help :)

Therion666

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A week ago I was more or less sure of what will my next PAM be, a lovely good quality Radiomir. I've never had one and I thought it was about time to change that fact. My two finalists were the H factory 380 and the KW Seagull 388 V2. The 448 qualified as the third choice. And those were the good days...
Had too much time and accidentaly found the 441 review by Polonus..what a mistake. My strong determination on buying a Radiomir got weaker and weaker by the minute and I got drawn into the whole new ideals on aesthetics. Those ceramic cases are somehow magically beautiful, there's something about them that speaks to me. I was a little bit worried that they would be too lightweight, but I believe they can't be that bad, the movement adds some grams and so does the crystal.
And there's a Seagull version that has a very reasonable pricepoint at 300$. Kinda liked the 438 Tuttonero too, but it was too expensive for my taste. And here we go, Sead posted a new thread yesterday, that he has the Seagull version for 369$:w00t: That's 69$ more for the ceramic bracelet and the blackened movement. But I'm not sure if I'll love the bracelet, since I've never cared for PAMs on bracelets, like the 299, there's something wrong with that picture to me. On the other hand I can still put it on an Asso if I don't like it, but that's 69$ out the window...My other concern is that I won't like any of these two in person, because of their similarity to the 359. I loved it in the pictures, but there was something about the dial that just didn't do it for me, it was kinda dull in person ( the sausage dials kinda pop out more ) and I couldn't tell the time in various light conditions because of the extremely poor AR. Maybe that's different with the black case and there' more contrast..I hope so anyway, the AR seems as shitty as with the 359.
To make things even more interesting we have a third contestant that became available at a very good price this week and that's the new Seagull KW 508, Sead sells it for 349$:

http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/215141-pm-508kw-full-ceramic-seagull-movement

I loved it from the introduction at SIHH, but was put off by the crappy reps we had in the past. But I've read the review by kilowattore:

http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/...8-Ceramic-review-PICS-HEAVY?highlight=pam+508

and I believe this is much better now. The pearl looks kinda poor in his review, like a piece of candy glued to the bezel, but the one from Sead seems to be a bit improved and more uniform with other colors on the dial and the bezel. What do you guys think? Or am I just imagining things? My main concern with this one is the size ( 47mm ). My wrist is 18 cm ( about 7" ) and my 243 is just about right at 44mm, this is what it looks like:



If anyone has a similar sized wrist and has experience with watches of this size please chime in, your opinion is of a great value. I'm really wondering if I can pull it off without looking like an idiot with a wall clock on his wrist :) I'm posting another two wrist shots with a Ploprof ( wears abnormally comfortable for its size ) and a 47mm Steinhart, which of course is a completely different watch and it looks bigger because of the thin bezel:





I know these are similar in size to the 508, but different types of watches with the same diameters usualy wear completely differently. I've had that experience with the Longines diver watch which looked ridiculous at 48mm. And the Plop is OK..dunno..Anyway, comments are more than welcome :)
 

ALE7575

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Since you have a big watch and a Sub go to PAM 388 V2 Seagull and PAM 438 with Seagull NON-inverted

ALEW
 

bro708

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Sorry for the Mini-Hijack OP but I'm considering getting one of these for myself (even though I really shouldn't) and I just wanted to ask a couple of quick questions of ALE (or anyone else who can help) if it's ok?

Since you have a big watch and a Sub go to PAM 388 V2 Seagull and PAM 438 with Seagull NON-inverted

ALEW

* Is there a thread explaining how can I tell the difference between inverted/NON-inverted Seagull movements? Is the one Sead has pictured here NON-inverted like you recommend?



* Am I correct in assuming that with the Seagull movements being from a proper manufacturer rather than a replica factory the watch should be ok without service for the first 3-5 years? Assuming no problems with it on arrival of course. I have two A7750s so far, one of them bought pre-serviced (m2m here) and one bought from a TD and sent straight in for service and was just wondering whether this one would be ok to wait a while?

* Lastly, are the links difficult to remove on the bracelet PAMs or is this something I could do pretty easily myself? Do you know if there's a good guide anywhere for this?

Also OP I picked this over the 441 even though like yourself I probably won't wear it on the bracelet much as at least I'll know it's there if I want it. Whereas if I went for the 441 I can see the ceramic bracelet being difficult to source as a spare part later on, I reckon it'd probably run you more than the $69 difference anyway even if you were lucky enough to be able to find one, not to mention there'd be WU/Paypal and shipping fees to pay again.

If you think there's a chance you'll ever wear the bracelet then I'd get the 438 TBH and then just buy yourself a nice leather strap for it or use one you already have. Just my thoughts and sorry once again for posting my questions in your thread, hopefully the answers'll help you too.
 

shelby1501

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I'll just say I have 7.2" wrist and I wear 382 and 187 without any problem. 243 fits my wrist perfectly but 47mm Sub's aren't that far away. :)
 

Therion666

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I'm leaning more and more towards the non inverted Seagull 438, I gave it a good thought and I think it's for the best at the moment, very versatile, it can be transformed into the 441 in a minute :) . I already have a sub and that would just be another one, only in black I'll leave the 388 for another occassion, can't get both at the moment. Maybe I'll get the 508 eventually, but I have to try the weight of a ceramic watch, I'm still concerned that I will not love the way it feels on the wrist, always hated titanium. My only concern is the miserable AR, I'd like to know if it's as poor as the AR on the 359? It's really poor on the 359 and you can't tell the time in many light conditions because of the bloody reflections, not to mention the inability to take a decent photo of the watch.
@shelby1501: Thanks for your input, always good to have feedback from people with actual experience. 47mm watches can look very different, depending on the shape of the watch case. Watches with thinner bezels appear to be much bigger and thickness of the case is also a big factor. I tried a 48mm Longines diver at the local AD's a while ago, because I wanted to try it before purchasing online and I'm glad I did, that thing was a monster of a watch, it literally dwarfed the Ploprof.
@bro708: Sead's version is non-inverted, because the balance cock is at 7 instead of at 5. This has been explained by ALE in many threads, but I don't have the time to look for them now. I'll post a link if I find any later.

edit-link to ALE's explanation on inverted and non-inverted movements:

http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/...ep-Who-makes-the-closest-one-to-the-Gen/page3

There's a mysterio thread on the 438 and he says he had to take it to the watchsmith to size the bracelet. Link will follow later, I have to run somewhere now.

edit-link to the review and the sought for info:

http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/...-PAM-438-quot-Tuttonero-quot?highlight=pam438

I share your thoughts on the 441-438 price difference, the bracelet will be hard to source and without a doubt more expensive than 69$. And the blackened movement looks stunning too, that alone is worth at least 50$ to me, I'll just stare at it when I have nothing better to do ;)
I'm sorry, but can't advice on the longevity of the Seagull movement, I'll leave this topic to more experience members. Thanks for your thoughts and no problem for hijacking the thread, I don't mind hearing as many opinions as possible!
 

shelby1501

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You're right, thickness of the bezel really depends on how big watch wears on the wrist. I prefer 187 because thicker bezel and higher case gives it overall better fit on the wrist than Bronzo (which I think is by all dimensions exactly the same like 508) but I love Bronzo because-well, it's Bronzo. Enough said. :)

438 is great choice and now when I saw Sead's post, I'm also considering it myself. Great price considering that bracelet is included in the deal.
Can't comment on 359 AR but PAMs are known for their bad AR. When I compare my 312's AR with AP Schumi, it's also not that great but it's not that I can't tell the time in certain light conditions. I think it will be the same on 438.

And speaking of Seagull, people are saying that ST2555 is more reliable than 7750. My experience can't confirm that it's more reliable as I haven't had any issues with neither of them but I prefer ST over the 7750 because it's much more silent, keeps great power reserve and price difference is significant. Win-win combiation IMO. :)
 

bro708

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Please don't take the time to search for stuff me, I shouldn't have been lazy to begin with. I just can't get on with the search function on this site for some reason.

Anyway, in case anyone else was interested I managed to find a really good post from ALE here on Inverted vs NON-Inverted decorated movements and I managed to find excellent instructions for removing links from the bracelet in this post from Chris3007.

Couldn't find anything regarding need for servicing with Seagull movements but I think I'll probably just grab one of these and wear it anyway, I'll worry about getting it looked at down the line if something goes wrong or else I'll just get it serviced at 3-5 years like any other watch I guess.

Now to convince my Wife to let me buy my 3rd watch in a month...

@bro708: Sead's version is non-inverted, because the balance cock is at 7 instead of at 5. This has been explained by ALE in many threads, but I don't have the time to look for them now. I'll post a link if I find any later. There's a Polonus thread I believe on the 438 and he says he had to take it to the watchsmith to size the bracelet. Link will follow later, I have to run somewhere now.
I share your thoughts on the 441-438 price difference, the bracelet will be hard to source and without a doubt more expensive than 69$. And the blackened movement looks stunning too, that alone is worth at least 50$ to me, I'll just stare at it when I have nothing better to do ;)
I'm sorry, but can't advice on the longevity of the Seagull movement, I'll leave this topic to more experience members. Thanks for your thoughts and no problem for hijacking the thread, I don't mind hearing as many opinions as possible!
 

Therion666

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I have some bad experience with the 7750 on my PAM243, which had a very poor power reserve. I've had big problems finding anyone in the EU to service the asian 7750 and it was very expensive when it was done. My Seagulls have worked flawlessly so far, I hope I didn't just jinx myself into getting a lemon next time :)
The AR on the 312 and the 359 is pretty much the same, I've had both, but the dial of the 359 is somewhat different in a way I can't explain and the watch reflects way too much light for my taste. My last purchase was the V6F CrPO and it's light years better than the 359, it looks like there's no crystal at all from most angles. I believe that the better contrast with the black housing may result in slightly better legibility.
P.S.: I hope you guys can understand what I'm trying to say, English is not my native language and I'm having difficulties expressing myself at times :)
 

Therion666

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I've already edited my previous post and provided the links. It's no problem at all, I'm glad to help. This place has given me so much and I have no problem giving back if I can. Thanks for your links!!
 

bro708

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Thanks for the reassurance and don't worry, your English is about 1000,000 times better than my Slovenian!

For future reference if you need servicing on A7750 (only with secs @ 9) I have two of these both serviced by UK Watch Services from the Tech section on this site.

One is a 243 bought m2m on here and already sent for servicing by it's previous owner (I bought it for this exact reason), it runs smooth and quiet, the power reserve is decent and it keeps great time, my other one which is a 164 bought from a TD is with them now and you're right, it adds a significant amount to the cost of a rep (almost half as much again as I paid for my watch) so if the Seagulls work well without it then that's a massive selling point, not to mention they're cheaper anyway.

It's my understanding that SSTEEL on here services A7750s too, UK Watch Services recommend him when they're too busy to take new work. I don't know how he compares to them cost wise though as I haven't used him. He's British and based in Finland.

I have some bad experience with the 7750 on my PAM243, which had a very poor power reserve. I've had big problems finding anyone in the EU to service the asian 7750 and it was very expensive when it was done. My Seagulls have worked flawlessly so far, I hope I didn't just jinx myself into getting a lemon next time :)
 

Therion666

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:) Thanks!

Good to know about more possibilities to service my watches, I appreciate it. My 243 was indeed serviced by Micky ( SSTEEL ) and he's done a great job, plus some modding of the CP. It was extremely expensive from my perspective, since there's much lower standard here in Slovenia and I felt like being kicked in the cojones when I saw the estimate :) But I love my PAMs and I did what needed to be done ;) I'm more active on RWG ( nick: thrn ) and he used to advertise his services there very actively. Which sadly resulted in him being banned a couple of days ago. My experience with him has been positive, especially when he's published tons of photos on every step of the procedure he did on my watch, haven't experienced that before.
Oh, and I've found the correct pin removal tool here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-Link-...320?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19f3172f48

( actually it's the one mentioned in your previous link ), the one in my previous post can be used on links up to 20mm, so please nobody buy that one!!!
 

Therion666

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Hmm, where do I start...Was just about to pull the trigger on the 438, when something else caught my attention in the bloody " What PAM combo have you chosen..." :) How would you guys say the 372 compares to the 508 and the 438 quality wise? Is it really so very good looking as in the pictures? It sings to me, oh yes it does, so very classy...But also quite expensive compared to the 448, which is pretty similar in many aspects. Worth the money?
 

ALE7575

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Talking about reps are better PAM 438 and even PAM 508
Talking about the beauty... this is a taste matter

ALE
 

Therion666

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Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate it. I've never had a black watch and I'm not sure how I'll like it in person. I wanted the 508 at first and got a little put off, because a TD has said that the markers on the bezel are not something to write home about. I don't really love the bracelet on the 438, but it's only 69$ more expensive than 441 and maybe I'd learn to love it :) I like the 372 best but it's very expensive for being a medium level rep. And then there's also the 288 that I need in my life, but I've read there's something wrong with pushers because the movement they have used is too thick for the case. The thing is that I get the funds to buy a watch very rarely and I'd like to get something with at least some wow effect when I unpack it :)
 

Therion666

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How do you guys feel the 288k compares to the 438/441 reps? Is it overall a better watch? It's pretty old now and I'm worried I'll get some god forsaken old stock leftovers from the bottom drawer :)