RM11 Quartz Project

[GiantSquid]

I've talked with some of you on here about someone making a quartz RM11 so we can have a gen-spec case thickness with a working, reliable movement that isn't going to explode if you play with the chronos like a 7750. I've been looking around for suitable parts and I think I may have come on a (partial) solution. I'd like to run it by some of the more experienced folks here to see if it's feasible or if anyone would be interested in supporting the project.

Here's what I've come up with so far:

Movement - Miyota 6S50. Mecaquartz chronos, big date at 12, with the subdials in the right location (except for subseconds). Other option is a Ronda 5040b, which trades the correct subdial locations for a big date that looks way too high to look proportional. Date font is a problem but more likely to be modifiable on the Miyota.

Case - KVF, either 11-03 or 11FM because those seem to be the most widely available. Front and rear bezels for sure, midcase if it can be thinned and still fit the pushers in the right place.

If the midcase needs more extensive modifying, I'd 3d print it, probably in carbon fiber filament.

I'd like to reuse as much of the deco as possible, or if new plates are required ideally they could be lasercut from thin brass and painted or enameled. Hands will have to be custom unless rep parts can be broached out as it's unlikely they'll fit straight out of the box, and the big date font is a back-burner problem.

I'm well aware this is a giant project that might end in total failure, but I figured I'd give it a shot. I've got time, access to tools, and the desire to see if I can make it work.

If anyone is interested in following along, let me know! I'm also looking for a donor KVF case, preferably from a broken watch so I don't destroy a working one. If you've got one, I'd love to figure out how we can come to an agreement! If you're a watchmaker and have feedback (even if it's to tell me I'm wasting my time), I welcome that too!

Thanks for reading my wall-of-text, and if I find enough interest (and a case to play with) I'll keep interested folks updated as it goes.

 

[XLR8R]

o7 i hope you succed on your journey

 

[Stuvetjee]

Ronda Quartz movements are def. smaller diameter than the current gen RM movement. So i think that wouldnt work. Miyota could be the better size, but seeing the date switcher i dont see it being modded well for the RM design.

 

[Mercedesslr]

I'd love to see this. If you were doing a RM 35 I have one I could donate to the cause lol.

 

[GiantSquid]

I'd love to see this. If you were doing a RM 35 I have one I could donate to the cause lol.

I bought a shitter RM62 to try out thinning the case and adding a quartz movement to see if I could get it more towards a 10mm thickness, but the watch I bought as broken showed up working sooooo I'm reluctant to tear it down until it breaks. Kinda lowkey annoyed about it but hey, I have a new watch to wear for a bit. I figured that would be the easiest model to start with considering there's no second hand, but the RM11 starts with a base that's closer to gen in the first place even if the movement itself is much more complicated.

Stuvetjee you're right about the date font, switching that to a skeletonized wheel is going to be arguably the hardest part. I was going to start with leaving the font at first, and then probably trying an acetate transfer or something if there's clearance. The Miyota datewheel is apparently a pain in the ass but at least they're cheap and available for tinkering purposes. Hoping I can make the dimensions work first, then going to try solving the date problem but it's going to be a headache, lol.

 

[GiantSquid]

UPDATES: After a week of research, I think this has a higher likelihood of working out than I originally anticipated. I dug up a bunch of spec sheets and it looks like the deco should be able to be swapped almost directly. The date should line up out of the box, but the 3-9 subdials need to be bumped out by 0.25mm and the 6 subdial by 0.5mm. This should let me modify only one layer of deco, but if I need to make custom ones I'm looking at a three-layer design, although clearances are going to be very tight for the subdial hands. I'm thinking laser-cutting some brass sheets, but the prototype will probably have to be made by hand, probably from a workable plasticard mockup.

Current problem (besides date font) is the hands. I can't find another movement used in RM reps that have matching hand sizes to the 6S50, but off-the-shelf hands are available. Does anyone have any experience making hands or can point me in the right direction to learn?

Still need to source a case or wait till one of my 7750s stop running, and then this can move beyond the theoretical stage to the part where I can start tinkering and having some pictures available. Again, if anyone has a case or even a working RM11 they don't want and would like to donate to the project, I'd be glad to compensate you!

 

[Stuvetjee]

UPDATES: After a week of research, I think this has a higher likelihood of working out than I originally anticipated. I dug up a bunch of spec sheets and it looks like the deco should be able to be swapped almost directly. The date should line up out of the box, but the 3-9 subdials need to be bumped out by 0.25mm and the 6 subdial by 0.5mm. This should let me modify only one layer of deco, but if I need to make custom ones I'm looking at a three-layer design, although clearances are going to be very tight for the subdial hands. I'm thinking laser-cutting some brass sheets, but the prototype will probably have to be made by hand, probably from a workable plasticard mockup.

Current problem (besides date font) is the hands. I can't find another movement used in RM reps that have matching hand sizes to the 6S50, but off-the-shelf hands are available. Does anyone have any experience making hands or can point me in the right direction to learn?

Still need to source a case or wait till one of my 7750s stop running, and then this can move beyond the theoretical stage to the part where I can start tinkering and having some pictures available. Again, if anyone has a case or even a working RM11 they don't want and would like to donate to the project, I'd be glad to compensate you!

Take a look on DHgate. Alot of cheapo quartz RM reps there

 

[NickNickNickk]

Amazing. I will follow this one

 

[BlueLineFarmer]

GiantSquid - Any update on the project.

 

[GiantSquid]

Latest update: not too big but some progress. Movements are ordered, expanding search for cases to some shitters for proof of concept, although a lot of the DHGate offerings have drastically increased in price which is quite annoying. Got some brass, acrylic, and plasticard and I've decided to cut oversized rectangles of the card and use that to mock up hardpoints and where deco features will go. It'll be a lot easier and less expensive to work the plasticard and in the end I'll have something to trace onto brass for the final piece. I can also work on it without having a watch to put it in, as the oversized card can be cut down to spec when I get my hands on a case to tear apart. I can measure gross size but I can leave the fine details and mounting hardpoints till I have a case.

Should get supplies in-hand in a week or so, so I'll post some photos when I have something concrete instead of just a million scribbled drawings!

 

[NickNickNickk]

If you are able to create a gen. I would be happy to buy one from you..

 

[GiantSquid]

Small negative update: sketched out the hardpoints of the 6S50 from the numbers I can find on the internet onto card, cut out a mockup, and the date location seems problematic. It sits too high for most existing deco by a couple mm, and although this is based on eyeballing my mockup on one of my working watches it seems like it's not going to play nice. Recreating the deco is always an option (and one I had planned for) but the proportions might need some massaging to make it work and it might not end up looking correct. Most movements I can find have the date too high above the hands, and although the 6S is the closest it still isn't as low as the big-date 7750s.

From what I can find there are a limited number of big-date movements available, and even fewer big date chronos. Most of the ones I can find are Dufours or Tags, which I believe both run on a modded 7750 just like the reps anyways, and cost a couple grand. These have the right proportions with the low-sitting date, but is essentially the same movement I already have and costs roughly double my whole project budget.

Next steps remain the same, wait for my movements to arrive and make plasticard mockups to replace my cardstock one. Once I have something that resembles an RM11 dial and fits onto the movement, then I'll worry about making it in metal and acrylic and casing it all up. Baby steps!

 

[GiantSquid]

Nonphoto update: movements arrived, only one was the 6S50 I wanted. Hopefully will receive a second correct one this week, but the big breakthrough was elsewhere: I found a case! KVF based with a broken movement, should be much easier to mock up pieces now that I can measure real hardpoints. I've made a couple card dial iterations, but still having problems nailing down the exact pinion placement without using a gigantic hole. 0.010" plasticard is tough to get precision holes in without tearing! Once my case comes in I should have perfected the template for the pinions and I can start examining the deco to reconcile the dimensions.

Ever upwards! Looking forward to pictures for y'all soon.

 

[Eseips]

Godspeed! Curious for the outcome.

 

[GiantSquid]

HUGE UPDATE INCOMING

Part 1: the Teardown


First impressions: this is a very well-engineered watch let down by a difficult movement and lack of care in assembly. The deco and case are well constructed and fully thought out, and show that a lot of work went into replicating the genuine watch. If assembled with care, it’s likely that this is just as reliable a watch as any with a 7750, despite the modifications. This particular watch, however, was definitely NOT assembled with care.


When the case screws were removed, the watch was awash in shavings from the bezel and caseback.

It looked for all the world like the holes had been drilled with everything assembled, and the screws just tossed in afterwards. Although the watch had some problems to begin with (hence why it was used for this project), after seeing the state of the interior it’s a near certainty that one of those shavings would have gotten into the movement and broken it. Note that this picture shows the state of it AFTER I had cleaned the swarf out of the bezel and caseback; the shavings were collecting in the screw holes and had even clogged the threaded insert on the back where a screw went missing.


The caseback has a very thin crystal and cutouts for the movement. The cutouts are well machined and care has been taken to ensure the movement and deco can fit with the correct tolerances. The front bezel is unremarkable and relatively simple compared to the back, and the crystal is nearly as thick as the bezel itself.


Flipping the watch over reveals the hands. The hour hand was flopping around on the pinion, eventually coming to stick on the small seconds. This damage apparently occurred during shipping but indicates that the hands weren’t attached too well. I haven’t run the tolerances on the holes yet, but upon removal the chrono seconds hand was found to be bent as well.


Interestingly, there was a tiny piece of what appeared to be pencil graphite found inside the case (visible above the hands). This does not appear to be a part of the movement and was jammed between the bezel and the case. More bad assembly practices! The sundial hands are miniscule and seem easy to lose. Only the small seconds has its own pinion, while the others attach to pinions sticking out of the movement.


Front deco is one sealed unit, which is very well engineered but a pain for modding. It consists of a backplate, a deco layer with lasercut wheels, the clear (acrylic or sapphire) dial layer with the numerals and other markings printed, and the rehaut spacer. Having the rehaut and deco as separate layers would be much much easier to mod but this method makes installation easy and can be done offsite at a supplier.


The front deco plate has dial pins which slot into the case (visible at 11:00 and 5:00), and there is a small tab on the back which threads behind the big-date wheels and provides the white backing; this needs to be slid out of the movement from the top after the bottom is removed. It’s a tricky job but once you know what you’re doing it’s not too bad and the datewheels are thick enough to not bend.


Now, those datewheels and that movement. The mods are hidden behind a jeweled plate with the datewheels moved up off the mainplate by a couple mm. This is probably the reason that the KVF reps with the proper big-date is 18mm thick while the old ones that used printed datewheels didn’t need extra clearance and could fit into a 16.5mm case. Again, you can see the white swarf everywhere despite me cleaning each piece as I disassembled it. Also visible is the solidified silicone lube that was slapped onto the gasket.


Both front and rear gaskets were like this, and it appears to be not just lube but also glue mixed in, as if they were lubed and glued in one step. I don’t know where to source these gaskets so I saved them but they’ll need some serious cleaning before any reinstall.


Flipping it over again, we see the disgusting rear gasket, more swarf, and the rear deco plate. The rotor was removed via a small screw inside the center hole; it’s pretty blind but a 0.8mm screwdriver slotted right in and the rotor comes right off along with the bearing. Rotor is lightweight pressed steel with a thicker weight riveted to the outer edge. There are much better rep RM rotors out there, but I’m guessing this one is thinner and every millimeter counts in a watch this detailed.


After the rotor is removed, the four screws at the corners can be removed and the deco plate comes off. This deco plate has the balance in the proper place for a 7750, but is exactly opposite gen (which has a balance at 7:30 viewed from the back). It’s made similarly to the front, with a thicker brass piece as the main plate that has lasercut details affixed from the bottom.


Finally, we have the movement fully removed. The movement is affixed in place with one screw tab and one eccentric cam, but drops right out the front once the stem is removed. The stem itself is tiny, and I thought I may have broken it during removal but it looks to be just small as there’s no damage to the end I can see under a loupe.

Things I Learned:

1. The 6S50 movement is too big for the midcasecase as built by a couple millimeters. Everything else (stem location, pushers) lines up incredibly well, but the movement itself is too large in diameter. Rather than machine out the one I have, I’m going to scan it (I have access to a dental lab and the scanning and printing capabilities thereof) and 3d print one with a larger ring to accommodate the bigger movement.
2. The datewheel of the 6S50 is 2-3mm too high for the deco as it exists. This is the biggest problem so far, because I’d prefer to reuse the existing deco. The hands and subdials are all within tolerance and actually fit, but the big date is too offset to work. I’m going to recreate the datewheel position in large scale and see if I can’t re-engineer a new wheel set that will align in the proper spot. It could be possible with creative shaping and printing, but this is the biggest obstacle so far.
3. The mods to the 7750 seem to be done very well. Someone put a lot of thought and effort into making the big date and switching around the subdials, and the plates containing them are jeweled and do an excellent job protecting the mechanism. I would bet that serviced versions of this are incredibly reliable if you don’t play with the chronos too much or handwind it too often.

Next Steps:

FIgure out datewheel. If that can’t be moved downwards I’m at an impasse. All the other problems so far seem to have actionable solutions, but this is up in the air. Stay tuned for some pictures of weird cardboard shapes as I engineer the wheels!

 

[GiantSquid]

Also huge shoutout to andy_fin for providing the case and donor watch. If you do a deal with him, do him a solid because he's a great dude and deserves it after being shipped this watch.

 

[andy_fin]

Oh man thank you so much! I am eagerly waiting to see what you'll do with it :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[krkqm2008]

Looking forwRd to this.. any financial support needed please PM me

 

[GiantSquid]

Short update and community choice time:

The deco and big-date do not line up, and it seems impossible given the tolerances involved to lower the date by the required distance and the tools at my disposal. We have a couple ways forward from here and I'd like some community input to help me figure out how to invest my time.

First, as an aside, I've decided to sacrifice my RM67 van Niekerk and see if I can reprint a thinner midcase to get it more towards 9-10mm of thickness. I'll need to trim off some of the bezel and caseback but I have a printer available for prototyping regularly now so I can make things without arranging my schedule around the availability of third-party printers. I'm hoping to have the CAD done in a week, and since this is just a 2-hand watch I can use basically any old movement and can change the hardpoints of the midcase to suit.

So, where do we go from here re: RM11? The way I see it we have three choices:

First, enlist a partner to continue with the RM11 who can fabricate parts and modify movements so we can move beyond the hobbyist level. Given that companies like Farer can have custom quartz movement modules made, there's no reason that a suitably-equipped partner couldn't do the same. However, I don't have these connections nor likely the funding required to purchase an initial order. If someone knows a factory owner or other engineer willing to work on something like this, that'd be the most likely endeavour to succeed, but also the most difficult and expensive one.

Second choice is to continue with the same workflow with a more suitable RM model (RM50-04, RM65-01, etc). It seems likely that a mecaquartz would drop in to the 50-04 movement and the subdials match, so we'd be losing the split-second (unless, as above, someone knows how to build and retrofit one) but could get gen thickness with nearly all functions, while on the 65 we could also use a mecaquartz with a reprinted date wheel to switch the orientation from 4:30 to 11. Similarly, we'd lose split-second and the subdials would have to be relabeled, but it should drop in with a minimum of fuss. The downsides to this are twofold: the reps I'd base these on are, charitably, shitters with no high-tier available, and are less popular and I straight like them less than the RM11.

Third choice is to create a watch around the 6S50 in stock configuration. This involves remaking the deco and some more disassembly, and would result in some pretty weird looking proportions on the dial that would pretty instantly stand out. This might be the easiest method, but would produce a result that I consider inferior.

So, community, I'd love y'all's input and connections on how to proceed. I've got the interest, some of the materials, some of the knowledge, and most of the money but we're at an impasse when it comes to implementation. What do you think?

 

[GiantSquid]

Another short update:

Decided to work on an RM50-04 (the Kimi Raikkonnen model) because it has the best combination of complications that can be repped and availability. I'll be putting a VK63 movement into it (which should fit just fine, no big date to worry about) and making the following mods from the shitter base I was able to source.

1. Rotor removed
2. Plate created to cover datewheel
3. Insert created to cover hole in deco for big-date window
4. VK63 inserted, pinion at 3:00 covered with deco

The hands should fit or be close enough to broach (I hope!), and the next goals are stretch goals:

5. Midcase reprinted to gen-spec (have reference photos, STLs being created now)
6. Modeling and printing of nonfunctional "rattrapante" deco to replace rotor (glued or screwed into existing rear deco)
7. Skeletonization of watch deco as much as possible at the corners like gen

The pushers will still be on the wrong side and the split-second pusher will not function, but this is the least problematic way to complete something for this project. Ideally I'd love a quartz split-second movement, but I can't find any that are available with the right subdial positions. It's too low for ETA splits, and the Breitling cal. 69 (nice) is perfect but rare as shit and can't be sourced for under $2k that I can find.

Just got QC of the RM50 donor watch, next update should be STLs of the RM11 midcase in a week or so.

Stay tuned.