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SUB How to Be Period-Correct with your Sterile TC Sub

Discussion in 'Rolex /Tudor Replicas' started by arcadia, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. arcadia

    arcadia Well-Known Member  

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    As TC starts to offer sterile sub cases, i.e. cases without rehaut and lug engravings, it may be essential to post a basic guide to pursuing your own period-correct TC Sub. With this, members don’t need to often ask.


    [​IMG]
    Sterile TC sub c/o Emdeevee


    Let me again just mention some basics:

    • Mix and matching gen Rolex parts from different periods is a norm. You will see a T series (1997) with incorrect Swiss Made dial from 2002. You will see a W series (1994) fitted with a new ARed crystal. It all depends on the owner and what upgrades he wants done on his own gen watch.
    • Rolex does not officially announce minor changes so there are no hard and fast rules. However, info sharing among owners and aficionados abound not only online but also through GTGs that give us information on such transitional changes.
    • This is not about the quality of rep versions as it’s not the topic at hand.

    But if one wants to be period-correct, these are some details you need to consider before you buy parts and modify your sterile Sub:

    First, we need to enumerate the more obvious details (the ones that can easily be seen if the watch is on your hand) of a sterile TC 16610 sub:

    • No lug holes on the case.
    • No rehaut engravings.
    • No Laser Etched Crown (LEC).
    • No Anti-Reflection (AR) on the Cyclop.


    With these features, there are two initial options one can choose:

    1. Y series gen – the Y series was a transitional period for the 16610 from 2002 to even early 2004. During these times, the sub transitioned from one with lug holes to no lug holes. Because of this, you will see gen Y series subs with lug holes and some without. This series possess all of the above features of the sterile TC. As such, you can date your TC during this series.

    [​IMG]
    Gen Y series no lug holes


    An additional quality of the Y series that correspond to the TC is the bezel teeth. Compared to other series gens, the Y series did have shallow bezel teeth similar to the P series of 2000. This seems exclusive to the Y series without lugholes as a number of those with lug holes have ‘normal’ teeth, so to speak. Other members have TC watches with better teeth construction, so this may just be a variance depending on what you received.

    [​IMG]
    Gen Y series teeth


    However, there is one glaring flaw with basing your TC on the Y series: during this time, the 93250 bracelet has the number marking on the back of the first link after the endlink.

    [​IMG]
    Gen Y series bracelet with 93250


    Solution? Very difficult as even if you can find a rep bracelet with the 93250 marking (I did), it is virtually tricky to use it with the current perfect V3/V4 TC SEL. Besides, their production quality would not have been the same.



    2. D series gen – the D series gen came predominantly in 2005. This series likewise possess the above TC features except for the none LEC. It was also originally issued without the 93250 marking on the bracelet so your sterile TC is period-correct on this era too.

    [​IMG]
    Gen D series bracelet without 93250


    Solution? Find a crystal, rep or gen, with LEC and your are now basically in the D series. No need for the AR as this came much later in the 16610.

    [​IMG]
    Gen D series no AR



    However, if you received the TC with shallow bezel teeth (How to know? you can clearly check it trust me), you will not be correct for this period as this had deeper teeth cavity. Your solution? Find a Clark or Sean bezel teeth assembly and replace it. With those replaced, you are now nearer the D series sub.

    [​IMG]
    TC and Clark bezel teeth comparison.


    Further Questions and Mods. Find below some clarifications:

    What if I want to replace the insert into a gen with flat 4?
    - This still falls under the Y series gen.

    [​IMG]
    Gen Y series with lug holes and flat 4


    What if I want to replace the crystal into a gen with AR on the cyclop?
    - The first AR cyclops on subs appeared on the last M series release leading to the V series. Both periods have rehaut engravings, so your TC will not be unserviced period-correct.

    What if I want to replace the crystal into a gen without AR?
    - Please see above no. 2.

    What about the clasp code with PJ4 or PJ10?
    - These date them to April 2008 and October 2008, respectively, under the gen V series. These are actually the last of the 16610 as it has been replaced by the 116610 with G and random serials during those times. If you plan to date your sterile TC to the Y series, it is not unusual to have a 10-year old watch (2003-2013) to have the bracelet, particularly the clasp, replaced.

    What if I just get the TC with rehaut engravings?
    - Yes you can but its engraving font and hue is incorrect, right smack on the face of your watch.

    What about the box? Which one is correct?
    - If you will base it to the Y series, get the old box with a 64.00.01 reference. If you will base your TC on the D series, get the new box.

    [​IMG]
    Gen Y series box


    Between the Y series and D series is the 2004 F series. Why not just based it on that?
    - The F series is the same in most respect to the no lugholes Y series, except for one: better teeth cavity. If you will base it on the F series, you are adding another tell.


    So if it’s harder to find a quality bracelet with a 93250 engraving to link the V3/V4 SEL, why not focus on the D series instead?
    - Correct. But you need to do the following:
    1) Find a crystal with LEC.
    2) Find a bezel assembly with better teeth as the TC teeth compared to the gen is different.

    [​IMG]
    Gen D series and TC teeth comparison c/o RG.



    Do LVs follow the same principle?
    - Except for the obvious insert, dial, and hands, 16610LV are identical with 16610. They generally follow the same series changes.

    [​IMG]
    Gen 16610LV Y series with shallow teeth.

    [​IMG]
    Gen 16610LV F series without LEC and better teeth.

    [​IMG]
    Gen 16610LV M series with new box.


    Is it true that the rehaut is deeper in gens than reps?
    - Yes, particularly on gens with no engraved rehaut. The rehaut is a bit deeper in the number of pre-owned gen 16610 versions I’ve handled. But they are only noticeable during gen GTGs where WM9s are side by side with gens without rehaut engravings. It is not evident if you hand your rep to someone without a ready comparison. Therefore, it is minimal in my priority of tells.

    Why care for all of these details? Who cares?
    - If this is one’s reasoning, I would suggest that you just buy the cheap Noobmariner and not buy a TC that will start you at $500+. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, I would even suggest that you just buy a far cheaper Sub homage. Not a good or bad thing but, clearly, you are not in the TC/WM9/BK niche target market to begin with. Kindly note that submariners are the most scrutinized and copied watch in all pre-owned market across all brands. It’s either you’re in this with all the details or simply not.

    So what do you suggest? What’s the ideal next move?
    - It depends on what makes you content, really. One thing constant with reps is that there will always be flaws. Taking into consideration that one can buy a gen insert and a gen crystal, we can eliminate those parts in the wish list equation. The ways to move forward would be for TC to focus on which gen series to follow:

    a. If Y series, the 93250 bracelet marking and clasp code are essentials to replicate.
    b. If D series, the clasp code is essential. Why? Because year 2005 (D) is very near 2008 (V). In gen circles, it is weird (but not technically improbable, of course) to upgrade your bracelet with the same bracelet in just 3 years (from MA to PJ code). The bezel teeth upgrade is likewise essential.
    c. If V series, the rehaut engraving is essential to be improved upon. In fact, if he will improve on this alone, I will be one happy camper. The bezel assembly is next priority.


    Given the above, everyone is free to conclude what path they want to go for. But we still need TC to help us achieve any of the above improvements. We’re not even into movements yet.

    As for the current me...

    [​IMG]


    Hope this further helps.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2013
  2. SUMIKITO

    SUMIKITO RWI SUPPORTER      

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    Period-Correct Sub...

    Great post Arcadia..........this post is a keeper! Thanks for sharing! :RWI:
     
  3. bht0504

    bht0504 Well-Known Member  

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    Good stuff Arcadia. I might have missed this somewhere but does the pointy 4 insert also fall under the Y series? I noticed you said the flat 4 does and just wondering if they are both correct for the Y
     
  4. Bonesey

    Bonesey Well-Known Member    

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    Wow, some great detective work there mate. I'll add this to the WIKI pages when I get a minute. But have some + rep for sure!
     
  5. Beone21

    Beone21 RWI SUPPORTER    

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    Very nice post!!
     
  6. Dr.Verylong

    Dr.Verylong Not Online Staff Member    

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    +rep for this outstanding article!

    In case somebody else wants to add reputation: Klick this icon in his article [​IMG]
     
  7. arcadia

    arcadia Well-Known Member  

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    Yes they are both correct. Pointed 4 starts with the no lug holes Y series, although I still see some flat 4 with the no lug holes in some pre-owned stores I regularly go in Hong Kong (has the largest stock).

    Thanks guys. I would have loved to add other information but maybe too long. Long story short, we have improved much on Rolex reps but to be honest there are still a lot of accuracy that needs to be improved upon.
     
  8. DocThor

    DocThor RWI SUPPORTER    

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    Would this be the same the latest LVs TC sold??
    I'm just about to get one (is on delivery today) and as far as I know those cases are sterile too...
     
  9. Bonesey

    Bonesey Well-Known Member    

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    I think all of his pieces are aimed to be from the same period. It's just he keeps improving on parts.
     
  10. Garyb

    Garyb Well-Known Member  

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    Thanks! I just bought a flat 4 insert for a future TC Sub purchase when the dial situation gets sorted out. I like drilled lug hole divers and was thrilled to find out that this insert came on a drilled case. Now the obvious question, is there a modded that will drill them for me? I asked TC if he can do this but he hasn't got back to me yet. If he does not offer this service, what's a man to do? Lol
     
  11. Subjeff

    Subjeff RWI SUPPORTER    

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    Great post bud! Rep points for you! :cheers:
     
  12. Bandit77

    Bandit77 Well-Known Member  

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    Hey guys I got my sub yesterday. Overall I am very satisfied. I can confirm the he is sanding the rehault. TC's insert is what impressed me the most. On his blog you can definitely see the round edges, but the one I got is barely noticeable with the naked eye! I may end up selling my gen insert lol!

    [​IMG]
     
  13. arcadia

    arcadia Well-Known Member  

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    I've included additional photos and questions to the above thread.
     
  14. I want Daytona

    I want Daytona Well-Known Member  

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    Sticky worthy
     
  15. Shadow88

    Shadow88 Well-Known Member  

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    Awesome!!!!

    This is definitely sticky worthy....a classic post. Great job!!!
     
  16. Ephry73

    Ephry73 Well-Known Member  

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    Thanks for the post brother. I actually planned to build the TC as a later Y series for the wife(her first name starts with a Y as well) and this guide just confirmed my build. I will need to engrave between the lugs, but I think this ill work. For those looking to add more vintage to their TC to match a particular year you can always over polish the bezel itself and round off a bit the teeth in doing so.


    E
     
  17. mrtoulouse

    mrtoulouse Well-Known Member  

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    That is one great post, man :cheers: Really really good outline of info here.

    Does anyone know if Clark still offers the bezel assembly?
     
  18. electric

    electric Well-Known Member  

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    Whoa so nicely detailed, very well done!!! Thank you!
     
  19. ThinkBachs

    ThinkBachs Do Not Sell To Or Buy From Me!!! No sale  

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  20. revhrd

    revhrd RWI SUPPORTER    

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    Very well put Arcadia, do any of these points apply to a tt?
     
  21. arcadia

    arcadia Well-Known Member  

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    Sorry for the late reply, was trying to help in some other things.

    I've not personally handled that many gen two-tone subs compared to steel subs. The one apparent difference, of course, is the bracelet from 93250 on steel to the 93253 on two-tone. Aside from the crown, bezel, bracelet etc highlighting gold, most of the features I’ve checked are the same with the steel versions discussed. I’ve taken some close up shots (Z series) with those features.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  22. rols16610

    rols16610 Well-Known Member  

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    Great info Arcadia, have some rep mate, cool post :cheers:
     
  23. Om3ga_guy

    Om3ga_guy *?*NOOB FRIENDLY*?*    

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    Arcadia, great post. Certainly sheds light on which direction to follow if your looking to take your TC to the next level.

    Any of you guys have a link to Clark's bezel ring? I can never properly filter his parts on eBay.
     
  24. jd7272

    jd7272 Well-Known Member  

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    Great post & info, thanks Arcadia
     
  25. mapman57

    mapman57 Well-Known Member  

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    Great stuff, many thanks.

    Still feel that the engraved TC rehaut is not as big a deal for me. In normal use on the wrist, it is impossible to tell the issues.

    In the hand next to a gen - Yes.

    In the hand under a loupe - Yes.

    A poor insert? The bezel teeth? A poor date mag cyclops? All easier to spot on the wrist than the rehaut engraving perhaps?

    Thanks for the great insight and evolution.
     
  26. arcadia

    arcadia Well-Known Member  

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    Yes, mapman those are easier to spot. It's just that the improvements on the new Explorer rehaut engravings are far better than the TC rehaut. I just wish we could simply transfer them, as if.

    I may have just have to live with it, tho.
     
  27. bht0504

    bht0504 Well-Known Member  

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  28. arcadia

    arcadia Well-Known Member  

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    Based on your link, the bracelet already has a 93250 stamped on the back but it has the wrong endlink.
     
  29. R0L3X

    R0L3X Well-Known Member  

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    sticky please
     
  30. arcadia

    arcadia Well-Known Member  

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    Thanks mates. Part II dial is up HERE.