A couple of Vintage Panerai questions...

[rmcsherry]

I know there are a lot of Vintage PAM fans on this forum, so I hope someone is able to help me.

Does anybody have any information on 26mm Rolex single shoulder spring bars as used in Panerai 6152's? I can't even find a picture of one - I know they're impossible to get hold of, but surely photos exist?! I was curious whether River's spring bars could be adapted (ie. using 2 bars to make one with solid ends) to give the same effect as the original spring bars.

The other question is regarding the construction of vintage panerai dials. From what I understand, the old sandwich dials are constructed from two 'plates' - one with the numerals cutout (and text engraved), the other sometime had the numerals engraved before it was lumed. The numerals were then filled with a clear resin. What I am trying to find out is the materials used - presumably the base plate would be brass, and the top either brass or a plastic. Does anybody have more information on the dial construction, or can you correct what I have written - I've found it difficult to find information on this subject. Also, if anyone knows how thick the two 'layers' should be, I'd be interested to find out. Here are a couple of photos that I have found:

 

[rmcsherry]

Hmm, I was wondering what the plug was all about. I guessed it'd be a guide to keep the two layers aligned - however, 4 pins like rep dials would do this just as well. Very odd, I guess I'll never know!

Any idea on the thickness of the sandwich? My Fiddy dial has two 0.5mm thick layers - I would of thought the vintage ones would be slightly thicker, but this may lead to serious issues when it comes to the canon pinion height.

Thanks for your reply, Enzo, helpful as always!

 

[Perspex Tropic]

The Sandwich Dial in the first Dial shows the "Marina Miltare" Text to be ingraved into the dial to be filled in later with White paint. I got 2 pics Of A Beautifull 3646 where the Ingraved "Radiomir Panerai" is not filled in with paint it shows the copper underneath the Black painted Dial. Since the text still shows copper colour I would think the material must be A Messing mixture, Copper would have turned Dark brown or even oxidised to green after sixty years! (same for the Hands? Golden hands would never oxidise like the ones in Vintage Panerai watches do)

Interesting to see the transparant Fill-ins in the Cutout Symbols, These could be A plastic material but I have seen other examples where the Filled Material showed Craqualé Cracks like A vintage Oilpaintings Varnish!
Would this be to Protect the Lume, Or the Wearer for the Radioactive substance?
Swiss watchmakers seem to have died becuase they used to lick the brushes to A pointed-shape when apliyng the Radioactive Lume to the Dials and hands. [smilie=brushteeth.gif]

Watchmaster claimed to me oncehe based his Sandwich Dialed 3646 on A Gen he had in his possesion for A while (It looked to me to one from Konrad Knirims collection)
So he might enligthen us with the Specs!
Sadly, The WM Case, Wire Lugs, Solid Backplate & Hands show the same flaws that the Molinja 3646 has, The Crown and Bezel are better but not correct! (Same for the Price tag )

 

[Perspex Tropic]

Btw,

Checkout the side and the Center hole of the First Photo, That looks as thick as A Millstone! :shock:

 

[babola]

Get to know your old movements, the concept of CANNON RECESS is not an issue Remember that ETA 6497 is a modern movement. Vintage 47mms used ROLEX and ANGELUS movements, nothing else. These pocketwatch and clock cannons were not short. Remember that Porcelan coated dials were common, which the ROLEX c.618 was often used in "thin" pocket watch models, the tolerances were still on the tall side.

The Plastic fill was to keep the degrading RADIOMIR dust inside the layer and not moving around. The cracking and ageing of the plastic is a common occurance of direct radioactive degredation on plastic. You can see the same thing happen to Plexiglass crystals over a Radium painted dial. The plastic will shrink, crack and darken with age, lay it next to a surface containing Radium in it, (16,000 year half-life!) and I bet that will help age it even more ...

The whole RADIOMIR concept was just dangerous. even contained in the dial, Radium just doesn't go dead. Not like Tritium which is manufactured and has a brief half-life. As well the emission levels are much safer with Tritium.

I wouldn't get any more detailed than to say the dials were brass/bronze. Which was the standard metal used in diving at that time.

The RXW original dial was similar to the original, but I have never seen a dial look like the GENs, it would be cool if there was a some point a fully photo accurate REP dial, but it would be very expensive to make in comparison to replica dials.

@Perspex Tropic don't just talk about those photos, post them here!

Again, another invaluable piece of information on vintage PAMs and related stuff in general.

thanks Enzo,
babola

 

[rmcsherry]

Thanks for the replies - as always, I'm overwhelmed by Enzo's knowledge. I've just been looking a t the 240, and you're right - I could get away with putting 2 rep dials on it, and still having space to fit hands! I'll add more photos as I find them, and wait hoping that WM will enlighten us with the 3646 he disassembled. [smilie=happy1.gif]

 

[Perspex Tropic]

"ROBERTO MIA PALMA!''

I love your new Avatar Enzo!

Seeing this film in the end of the 80's for the first time I realised that What I had been doing since child hood was Free imersion Free Diving!
My record is 30meters Free imersion with Palma (Fins)
and Almost three minutes submerged.

I never Took part in competitions, Competition Is not my thing It makes every Sport Or Martial Art Competitive, Comercial, Dangerous, Expensive, Egocentric and most of all, It takes away the original reason for practicing It: Fun!

"Le Grand Bleu" By Luc Besson Is one of my favorite Movies, Jean Reno (Enzo) who was born in the (Then French Colony) Algeria, Is the Driving Force in this picture. The Movie "Leon" by Besson seems to have been written on his Friend and Actor Reno.

"The Big Blue" portrays the competition between two Rivals and Friends, In the Free Diving Discipline.
Based On Two Real Italian and French Free Diving Pioneers.
It shows That A good friendship can be destroyed by Rivallery, Jealosy or pride.

Since Childhood I have been vissiting and exploring the Med, "Nostro Azzuro" (Our Blue) like the Italians would claim! Despite their Able Military Fleets of Roman, Venetian, Genovese and Panerai equiped 10th Flotilla I would say After so many losses I hope they Really learned to enjoy this Sea in the middle of So many Culteres, In A Un-competitive relationship with their Fellow Mediterenean Neigbours!

Anyway nice Avatar Enzo! :roll:

Btw I know how to email my photo files but in posting them here I have not suceeded yet!

 

[rmcsherry]

"ROBERTO MIA PALMA!''
Btw I know how to email my photo files but in posting them here I have not suceeded yet!

If you email them to me, I can post them on the board. I've sent you a PM with my email address. Thanks!

 

[babola]

"ROBERTO MIA PALMA!''

I love your new Avatar Enzo!

Seeing this film in the end of the 80's for the first time I realised that What I had been doing since child hood was Free imersion Free Diving!
My record is 30meters Free imersion with Palma (Fins)
and Almost three minutes submerged.

I never Took part in competitions, Competition Is not my thing It makes every Sport Or Martial Art Competitive, Comercial, Dangerous, Expensive, Egocentric and most of all, It takes away the original reason for practicing It: Fun!

"Le Grand Bleu" By Luc Besson Is one of my favorite Movies, Jean Reno (Enzo) who was born in the (Then French Colony) Algeria, Is the Driving Force in this picture. The Movie "Leon" by Besson seems to have been written on his Friend and Actor Reno.

"The Big Blue" portrays the competition between two Rivals and Friends, In the Free Diving Discipline.
Based On Two Real Italian and French Free Diving Pioneers.
It shows That A good friendship can be destroyed by Rivallery, Jealosy or pride.

Since Childhood I have been vissiting and exploring the Med, "Nostro Azzuro" (Our Blue) like the Italians would claim! Despite their Able Military Fleets of Roman, Venetian, Genovese and Panerai equiped 10th Flotilla I would say After so many losses I hope they Really learned to enjoy this Sea in the middle of So many Culteres, In A Un-competitive relationship with their Fellow Mediterenean Neigbours!

Anyway nice Avatar Enzo! :roll:

Btw I know how to email my photo files but in posting them here I have not suceeded yet!

Have you been to the Adriatic coast yet, Perspex? - absolutely beautiful !

cheers,
babola

 

[Perspex Tropic]

Yes, my wife is from Corfu in the Ionian Sea, Bordering The Adriatic. Whe have Sailed once from Venice to Corfu (The whole Adratic) A Amazing Voyage!
Espescially since Corfu was under Venitian rule for 4 centuries, Hence never Occupied by the Turks like the rest of Greece, The Ionian Islands Federation joined Greece in 1860, About the same time that Venice joined the Italian Kingdom!

 

[bigbadbrad]

diving & sailing must be correlated to PAMs

-
Off topic - vintage dials - but had to join in!

First, I too love enzo's new av!

Seems like diving runs on this bd too - I have been diving 30 years. I started in PNG (new guinea), with WW II wrecks and amazing reefs; better sealife diversity than the Great Barrier Reef.
Solomons, Truk, Fiji ... around Australia, including Tasmania. Latest trip was down to Playa del Carmen, Mexico (excellent).

Haven't done the free diving thing - but know some of the history.

The Med and Aegean are great, especially the cultures - have yet to do upper Adriatic (off Croatia for e.g.). I had a stop-over in Corfu in the late 90s, took the ferry there from Patra -> Corfu, then -> Brindisi.

Wish I were off traveling right now!! @Perspex am also into sailing

--- BBB

 

[Perspex Tropic]

Arhh Matey!

Good to hear Many Off-Topic Hobbys incommon Here! [smilie=thumbsup.gif]