Question: Building Trust with Builders and the Pros and Cons of Wearing Vintage Replica

[Molokai express]

Hello vintage watch folks,

As I continue down my watch journey, it has become increasingly obvious to me that my tastes are squarely rooted in vintage Submariners and GMT Masters and no amount of homage watch purchasing gets the job done. Some of you can seriously relate, right?

Until I came across this website a few days ago, I had never even considered that people like the builders featured here would achieve what they do. The dials and aging process and case modifications are truly works of art. So awesome. Ok, with that out of the way, questions--

Before I get ahead of myself, is it possible to pay around $2,000 to $2,500 on a vintage Sub rep and have it be a practical watch for daily wear that could easily and affordably be maintained by run of the mill watch makers? I wouldn't do construction work in it, but it wouldn't be that practical for me if it couldn't survive a dunk in the ocean for a swim or the knocks of daily life. For those who have vintage reps, what has your experience been along these lines?

For this next part, I'd just like to hear from folks who are happy (or not happy?) with their vintage replicas they they purchased (not built themselves) on this site about what the process was like becoming a part of this community, and being trusted enough that the reputable builders trusted you as a buyer. I am not totally new to Internet forums where expensive goods pass hands between members and while I haven't done a lot of exchanges on other sites, I have done a few and know that some buyers can be a nightmare. For example, reasonable pics and descriptions are provided and the person buys, isn't happy and all sorts of drama ensues. I know credibility and feedback are built over a years in some cases. What did your pathway to trust look like for you? What has your experience been like? Any advice?


​​​​I've seen posts where it is made clear that the most skilled and senior builders often pick their buyers, which I get. No one wants to deal with the Larry David of the watch forum world, especially when so much work and money have gone into these pieces.

Ultimately, I'd love to work with a serious builder here and I'm ready to take some direction on what it looks like. To all those that waded through this, I really appreciate it. My head is kind of exploding from discovering this place and I want to get off on the right foot. Thanks again.

M.

 

[lucadotti]

Welcome! I have a 1665 Double Red Sea Dweller that I wear as hard as I would any other watch. It functions as well as I could ever ask it to and is perfectly capable of being submerged to great depths (and often is!). Mine is off the shelf and not built for me, but was serviced by a trusted member of the community. I absolutely love this watch and for the money, I could not be happier.

I don't have a ton of information regarding the questions you asked; or really any, aside from my experience wearing a vintage Rolex. I wanted to respond, because the way you've approached this is so superbly refreshing. Your questions are very mature in their intention and I just wanted you to know that I think you are 1. In the right place; so again, welcome! 2. Going to be delighted in all the possibilities you will find and I am excited to see what masterpiece you have built for you!!

Let the PROS chime in!

 

[sukwonee]

I have done a build thru a builder (Hanski) and bought an already built build (originally done by Johnny Depp).

I am happy with both watches I ended up with.

For the watch that was already built, I was pretty lucky in that it matches my budget and specs I was hoping to get. Later I found out tho that one of the previous owners of the watch decided to refinish the case and partially undid some of Johnny Depp's original case work. I was able to learn how to do case reshaping and got it to look much better now (and today I learned a new method from lawlessflyer thank you).

So the take away I guess is that yes you can still buy already built watches even if the original builder doesn't sell them directly to you. I think I was the 4th owner of the watch I have now. And I was able to purchase mine for a lot cheaper than all the cost that went into the watch. Also take the time to read thru all the previous sales posts on the watch. If I paid more attention, I would have found out that the case was further refinished.

 

[Perpetual]

I have done a build thru a builder (Hanski) and bought an already built build (originally done by Johnny Depp).

I am happy with both watches I ended up with.

For the watch that was already built, I was pretty lucky in that it matches my budget and specs I was hoping to get. Later I found out tho that one of the previous owners of the watch decided to refinish the case and partially undid some of Johnny Depp's original case work. I was able to learn how to do case reshaping and got it to look much better now (and today I learned a new method from lawlessflyer thank you).

So the take away I guess is that yes you can still buy already built watches even if the original builder doesn't sell them directly to you. I think I was the 4th owner of the watch I have now. And I was able to purchase mine for a lot cheaper than all the cost that went into the watch. Also take the time to read thru all the previous sales posts on the watch. If I paid more attention, I would have found out that the case was further refinished.

Thanks mate! Glad I could help out my fellow watch lovers as yourself

Cheers!

 

[Molokai express]

Welcome! I have a 1665 Double Red Sea Dweller that I wear as hard as I would any other watch. It functions as well as I could ever ask it to and is perfectly capable of being submerged to great depths (and often is!). Mine is off the shelf and not built for me, but was serviced by a trusted member of the community. I absolutely love this watch and for the money, I could not be happier.

I don't have a ton of information regarding the questions you asked; or really any, aside from my experience wearing a vintage Rolex. I wanted to respond, because the way you've approached this is so superbly refreshing. Your questions are very mature in their intention and I just wanted you to know that I think you are 1. In the right place; so again, welcome! 2. Going to be delighted in all the possibilities you will find and I am excited to see what masterpiece you have built for you!!

Let the PROS chime in!

Such kind words, thank you. There are clearly some sincere people here, and I'm glad to have just met one. Cheers.

 

[Molokai express]

I have done a build thru a builder (Hanski) and bought an already built build (originally done by Johnny Depp).

I am happy with both watches I ended up with.

For the watch that was already built, I was pretty lucky in that it matches my budget and specs I was hoping to get. Later I found out tho that one of the previous owners of the watch decided to refinish the case and partially undid some of Johnny Depp's original case work. I was able to learn how to do case reshaping and got it to look much better now (and today I learned a new method from lawlessflyer thank you).

So the take away I guess is that yes you can still buy already built watches even if the original builder doesn't sell them directly to you. I think I was the 4th owner of the watch I have now. And I was able to purchase mine for a lot cheaper than all the cost that went into the watch. Also take the time to read thru all the previous sales posts on the watch. If I paid more attention, I would have found out that the case was further refinished.

Great feedback, that all makes sense, thank you for taking the time, really appreciate it.

 

[p0pperini]

:ttiwwop:

I mean, c'mon guys.

 

[kadeee]

I got a few SuperFranken built, each more than 2k€. From my perspective these watches are worth the money, most of them are Gen but the case. Well, the case is the most visible (and touchable) part of a watch beside the bracelet. But it's relatively easy to get a suitable case for not so much money in comparism to a Gen case. The more difficult part is to get all parts together.
I'm a kind of a Rolex Guy.
The most difficult question on Rolex builds is which way to go. Go the ETA way (which is not compatible with the Rolex clone movements) or go the Clone movement way.
Both ways have their pros and cons.

And here we go:

Franken based on a JF 16610 LV Sub.
Case (incl. Bezel ring), movement and bracelet are still JF, Dial, Hands, Crystal, Crown and Datewheel are Gen


SuperFranken with Gen cal. 3035 Movement. Complete Gen but the case


Franken build, based on a JF 16610 case. Used parts are: VN 16800 matte dial, Gen tritium hands, Gen Insert, Gen Bezel Ring, Gen Crystal, Gen Crown, Gen open 6/9 Datewheel, VR 3135 movement, HQ bracelet with Gen 501B Endlinks. Still for sale


Franken build, based on a Sean Case. Used parts are: Sean Case, TC half llnks, Gen extra Links, Gen Clasp, Gen Dial and Gen hands, VR 3135 movement, Gen Bezel. Watch has been polished by TomRep




SuperFranken with gen cal. 1575 GMT. Used parts are: Milk Case set, Gen cal. 1575 GMT movement, Gen Hands, Gen crystal, Aftermarket Crown and Tube.

 

[chrome72]

I have a rep 6538 and I pressure tested it down to 10 atm which is about 330 ft. It has seen plenty of water activities. It’s a solid watch case. Bought from Silix like a ton of similar builds.

 

[Molokai express]

Thanks for the pressure testing info Chrome72.
@Kadee--
Thanks for sharing the info on your pieces, pretty sweet. You'll have to forgive me as I get my nomenclature down, but with regards to Pros and Cons of going clone movement or ETA movement, it looks like your examples are a mix of genuine movement and clone movement. Would you care to comment on the pros and cons of your experience and what has tended to work for you? Without knowing a lot about this yet, I kind of set my sights on a 5513 running an ETA or some other reliable easy to replace/maintain movement. As my daily watch, I hoped that I could take it to a local watch repair shop for maintenance and it wouldn't involve sourcing clone parts, or gen parts, but I still have a lot to learn so I have no idea of that is a silly premise to start with.

 

[Julian13]

hanski Just wanted to add in here that I have used him 3 times and he is fantastic. There are plenty of other very trustworthy and knowledgeable builders here too. Cheers!

 

[Molokai express]

Right on Julian, much appreciated.

 

[Retina]

Hi Molokai, i guess i can answer the movement question. All mechanical watches - whether ETA or Asian are hits and misses. Especially when it comes to custom made pieces. I've had asian movements from factories that still work even after 5 years and some ETA just go bust out of no where without any impact. Alot of the reasons why movements "break" is simply due to the fact that builds are franken projects - they arent exactly engineered to work flawlessly for years without some care.

I have had about 4 vintage pieces in my collection which broke sometimes after 3-4 years of use. And I don't blame the builders - its just the nature of vintage builds. Finding a person who is willing to fix and work on them is hard enough - even if you get them to the modder - the problem is time.

Amongst the 4 pieces which broke - 2 of them are ETAs, one is a Mjolna and one is an Asian movement.

2 are now currently in Italy being serviced and its likely that the entire movement needs to be replaced - that's an easy 180 euro minimum.

Does it bother me? No. Each of those that broke ranged between 1-3k USD to build and that was the realm of the price which I bought them in.
You can reasonably expect your vintage piece to run a good 3-5 years from a good builder, longer if you are lucky. But I would set aside a good 200 euro every 3 years for maintenance and TLC

Again, its not the price you pay that is the problem, the 4 pieces remained dormant with me for a good 1-2 years before I finally found someone to work on them reliably.

 

[kadeee]

You'll have to forgive me as I get my nomenclature down, but with regards to Pros and Cons of going clone movement or ETA movement, it looks like your examples are a mix of genuine movement and clone movement.

First of all you should be aware that the Rep business is simply to make money fast. This is not easy to be seen from the outside. However, my watchmaker kept sending me photos of the Clone movements, which prove this very clearly. Some bearings were not oiled at all, he found threads in the movements, and some parts of the movement were even rusty when delivered. Basically, I send every new replica after receipt to the watchmaker, so these statements reflect the state of how properly they work in the factories.
As I already stated I mainly have Rolex Clone movements or Gen calibers in my watches. The major problem with these movements is that some parts are not compatible with Gen parts. If a not compatible part breaks you're f***ed up. It's not easy to source those parts to get the movement working again. And as of this it's a bit different for Reps with built in AETA movements. These movements are compatible to Swiss ETA movements and parts are interchangeable. But it also applies to AETA movements that they are not assembled under clean room conditions and very often have been incorrectly oiled or are simply very dirty.
Pros and cons are therefore often a matter of taste. With ETA compatible movements, you have a better basis to have fun and enjoyment with your replica for a long time. For Rolex watches, however, some parts, such as original dials or hand sets, can not be used for ETA compatible movements without modification or damage. Also, the rotor on ETA compatible movements is not so quiet and almost not noticeable compared to Rolex 3xxx movements. The height of the movements also differs, so that a later exchange from AETA to Rolex is almost impossible. For this reason, I am also currently having my 16610 LN SuperFranken converted from an excellent TCv3 case to a less perfectly cloned Vietnam case. Fortunately, TomRep can fix most of the obvious flaws with the VN case, so I'm sure I'll be very happy in the end.

As my daily watch, I hoped that I could take it to a local watch repair shop for maintenance and it wouldn't involve sourcing clone parts, or gen parts, but I still have a lot to learn so I have no idea of that is a silly premise to start with.

The 5513 is a beautiful watch. I wish you a lot of fun wearing it and also that the watch stays with you for a long time without any problems. For this I would recommend you to buy a vintage 5513 OoB and to ensure a long lifetime after receipt give it to a watchmaker who does not care which brand is on the watch, but who does good work and service the movement according to quality standards.

 

[Molokai express]

[QUOTE

Again, its not the price you pay that is the problem, the 4 pieces remained dormant with me for a good 1-2 years before I finally found someone to work on them reliably.[/QUOTE]


Ret--you are the man. Thank you for taking the time. As Alanzo said in Training Day, "Ain't nothing free in this world, Jake."

With regard to finding someone to work on the watches reliably, am I to assume that legit watch repair people often refuse to work on these Franken mods?

 

[Molokai express]

@Kadee, man, thank you so much for the solid info, really appreciate it. The goodwill in here is really amazing, thanks to everyone for keeping that alive."

 

[Siesta Shrink]

As Alanzo said in Training Day, "Ain't nothing free in this world, Jake."

Haha, it's been too long. "You wanna go to jail or you wanna go home?" :thumbsup:

 

[Peguine]

So far i've had pretty good experiences with modders and builders when it comes to vintage. Of course it comes with the caveat that plexi crystals do scratch easier and the build quality of gen spec rolex isn't comparable to modern counterparts. I say wear and enjoy, if I had the gen of the watches I wore i would never wear them out, take the opportunity to use them how they were meant to be used, as tool watches .

 

[Nikz19]

Now, that’s the right way one should introduce himself to a community.
Why didn’t you asked who makes the best sub? LOL

When it comes to vintage, you have PLENTY of different builds and price tags you can reach.
They will serve you well for the years being- you could also fit a genuine movement in it depending by which case you chose to start your build with.

This, as example, is a high-end 1680 I finished for a customer yesterday. Terrific watch, beating on a genuine RLX 1570 movement. You could do the same and slap a ETA in it, and save quite a few extra quids.

 

[Peguine]

This, as example, is a high-end 1680 I finished for a customer yesterday. Terrific watch, beating on a genuine RLX 1570 movement. You could do the same and slap a ETA in it, and save quite a few extra quids.

Why don't you send me that watch instead hehehhe