deadpan
Active Member
Surely if TDL is using original Rolex pads to print his dials, then the originals would have been printed as well? Or am I missing something?
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Making a gilt dial (not decal)
- Thread starter chrome72
- Start date
Surely if TDL is using original Rolex pads to print his dials, then the originals would have been printed as well? Or am I missing something?
deadpan
Active Member
After watching this satisfying video here (I know it’s not gilt, just very satisfying to watch);
https://youtu.be/YPHx4ebW0iY
i then then stumbled upon this page (apologies if this has already been linked/ discussed), which seems to suggest that early gilt dials were etched rather than pad printed? Of course who knows if it’s correct, but it does seem to add up in terms of the dials being matte originally before being gloss varnished. Presumably the varnish eventually breaks down/ is attacked by radium etc, or reacts with the matte layer beneath, possibly causing the browning/ tropical degradation we see in some dials?
https://www.longitudi.fi/en/rolex-gilt-dials/
“The manufacturing process of gilt dials was significantly different from the production of normal pad-printed dials. The process was considerably slower and more complex, which is why it was abandoned relatively quickly.
In the gilt method, a glossy, hard enamel paint coat was applied on the backing metal of the dial. There were at least two different methods that were used after this step.
In early gilt dials, a negative mask containing the letters and numbers was applied over the black primer. The dial was then etched. After cleaning the dial, the numbers etched on the dial were gilded with gold leaf or silvered with silver leaf. When examined with a microscope, older gilt dials show that the letters have been etched.
In later gilt models, gilding or silvering was done directly on the painted surface without etching. A mask was used in this gilding method as well. The text and numbers on these dials do not show indentations caused by etching. Sometimes, in addition to the gilding, other elements were added to the dial with white paint, such as in the Rolex Submariner gilt underline model.
In both methods, the dial was protected by applying a thick coat of varnish after gilding it. The varnish protected the delicate gold leaf surface and prevented the silvered surface from oxidizing. Luminous mass was applied on top of the varnish by using either the pad-printing method or by manually painting it.”
https://youtu.be/YPHx4ebW0iY
i then then stumbled upon this page (apologies if this has already been linked/ discussed), which seems to suggest that early gilt dials were etched rather than pad printed? Of course who knows if it’s correct, but it does seem to add up in terms of the dials being matte originally before being gloss varnished. Presumably the varnish eventually breaks down/ is attacked by radium etc, or reacts with the matte layer beneath, possibly causing the browning/ tropical degradation we see in some dials?
https://www.longitudi.fi/en/rolex-gilt-dials/
“The manufacturing process of gilt dials was significantly different from the production of normal pad-printed dials. The process was considerably slower and more complex, which is why it was abandoned relatively quickly.
In the gilt method, a glossy, hard enamel paint coat was applied on the backing metal of the dial. There were at least two different methods that were used after this step.
In early gilt dials, a negative mask containing the letters and numbers was applied over the black primer. The dial was then etched. After cleaning the dial, the numbers etched on the dial were gilded with gold leaf or silvered with silver leaf. When examined with a microscope, older gilt dials show that the letters have been etched.
In later gilt models, gilding or silvering was done directly on the painted surface without etching. A mask was used in this gilding method as well. The text and numbers on these dials do not show indentations caused by etching. Sometimes, in addition to the gilding, other elements were added to the dial with white paint, such as in the Rolex Submariner gilt underline model.
In both methods, the dial was protected by applying a thick coat of varnish after gilding it. The varnish protected the delicate gold leaf surface and prevented the silvered surface from oxidizing. Luminous mass was applied on top of the varnish by using either the pad-printing method or by manually painting it.”
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I saw an picture that had amazing resolution of the dial. The focus of the pic was the 12 o’clock marker and the text commented on how the marker was a bit recessed and now that you mention etched it did appear deeper than the normal pics I see when googling gilt dials. Maybe they were etched The classical photoetching way to provide the relief but still don’t know how they would remove the image without removing the paint.
your link also made mention of black enamel which is the same way NTH watches make their gilt dials FYI .
bigtiddygothgf
Active Member
- 7/10/18
- 303
- 137
- 43
Are the backs of the gen dials not exposed brass as well? if they are then I don't see why the black wouldn't just be conventionally pad printed on. If it was plated with some sort of coating you'd expect the back of the dial to have the same black plating too no?
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Tempus Machina claims to use the “exact same process” as Rolex did to create their negative relief gilt dials, perhaps they can provide some clues
https://tempus-machina.com/pages/the-details
https://tempus-machina.com/pages/the-details
deadpan
Active Member
Also found this page;
https://www.rescapement.com/blog/what-is-a-gilt-dial-watch
With this description, which mentions both printing and galvanic coating, which seems to contradict the earlier ‘etching’ description:
“Producing a “true” gilt dial is an intensive process. First, the blank brass is highly polished to a mirror finish. Then, the desired design — text, name, logo, markers — is printed or stamped with a special clear coating. Then, black paint is galvanically applied to the dial; the applied clear coating prevents this paint from binding to those parts of the dial. Lastly, a clear lacquer coating is added to the dial to give it a “glossy”, shiny finish. Thus, for clarity, you’ll often find dials manufactured using this process referred to as “glossy gilt” dials to further differentiate them from dials that might simply have applied gold print. After the lacquering process, additional print may be added. For example, Rolex often printed depth ratings in white print after lacquering. Rolex produced glossy-gilt dials on a number of watches until around 1967.
On these glossy gilt dials, you’ll find the print produced using this gilt process is slightly recessed to the dial’s surface. Further, the light plays differently on the gilt text at different angles, rendering it anything from a bright white to a deep bronze. Further, the applied lacquer prevents corrosion of the underlying metal, so as long as the lacquer remains in tact, the polished plate will remain sharp and shiny. But, given the age of many of these glossy gilt watches, some have began to show signs of age — the “spidering” evident on many of these watches is the lacquer cracking — and the golden hue of the underlying gilt gives way to a warm amber or orange.”
I then followed a link in the above page to a vintage Rolex page, where I discovered this (although I didn’t read the entire thread);
“A couple of years ago I bought my 6538 which had bad re-finished dial on it. Until I could source and original dial, I decided to find an original plate and get the best re-finished dial I could find. I set out to find someone who could make the dial as close to original as possible. I contacted 5 refinishers. 2 in the USA, 2 in Europe, and one in Asia. The first US vendor was dismissive and no help at all. The 2nd one seemed interested so I sent him a slew of images and detailed instructions of what I wanted. He was gracious enough to take the time and talk to me about it on the phone. I was adamant about the gold text reflecting light as my images, and wanted that warm orangey color. He explained that he could not meet my expectations because he could not print in the original way. He then set out on explain the old gilt dial making process to me, most of which went over my head. He said that they start with artwork 12x the original size, and manually, by hand, use a pantograph machine to etch the printing plate. The surface of the dial, usually brass, would be polished and treated with some chemicals or electroplated another metal color that would create the color of the text. He told me the text color is hard to control because the base metal will react differently. The stencil or plate is used to create the black portion. (I do not know the exact process, maybe someone with better technical knowledge can explain) after the black layer, a layer of clear laquer would be used and then cured. After that it would be polished to a clean shine. If a second color was used, as in a depth rating, it would then be printed on top of the laquer using a metallic ink. This may explain why many dials are later missing the depth rating.
I later ended up working with a dial refinisher in Europe who was fanatical about trying to match the original process and I had the dial made. He sent me some images throughout the process, and I could really appreciate the technique that went into making these dials. “
From: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/what-is-gilt-t32106.html
https://www.rescapement.com/blog/what-is-a-gilt-dial-watch
With this description, which mentions both printing and galvanic coating, which seems to contradict the earlier ‘etching’ description:
“Producing a “true” gilt dial is an intensive process. First, the blank brass is highly polished to a mirror finish. Then, the desired design — text, name, logo, markers — is printed or stamped with a special clear coating. Then, black paint is galvanically applied to the dial; the applied clear coating prevents this paint from binding to those parts of the dial. Lastly, a clear lacquer coating is added to the dial to give it a “glossy”, shiny finish. Thus, for clarity, you’ll often find dials manufactured using this process referred to as “glossy gilt” dials to further differentiate them from dials that might simply have applied gold print. After the lacquering process, additional print may be added. For example, Rolex often printed depth ratings in white print after lacquering. Rolex produced glossy-gilt dials on a number of watches until around 1967.
On these glossy gilt dials, you’ll find the print produced using this gilt process is slightly recessed to the dial’s surface. Further, the light plays differently on the gilt text at different angles, rendering it anything from a bright white to a deep bronze. Further, the applied lacquer prevents corrosion of the underlying metal, so as long as the lacquer remains in tact, the polished plate will remain sharp and shiny. But, given the age of many of these glossy gilt watches, some have began to show signs of age — the “spidering” evident on many of these watches is the lacquer cracking — and the golden hue of the underlying gilt gives way to a warm amber or orange.”
I then followed a link in the above page to a vintage Rolex page, where I discovered this (although I didn’t read the entire thread);
“A couple of years ago I bought my 6538 which had bad re-finished dial on it. Until I could source and original dial, I decided to find an original plate and get the best re-finished dial I could find. I set out to find someone who could make the dial as close to original as possible. I contacted 5 refinishers. 2 in the USA, 2 in Europe, and one in Asia. The first US vendor was dismissive and no help at all. The 2nd one seemed interested so I sent him a slew of images and detailed instructions of what I wanted. He was gracious enough to take the time and talk to me about it on the phone. I was adamant about the gold text reflecting light as my images, and wanted that warm orangey color. He explained that he could not meet my expectations because he could not print in the original way. He then set out on explain the old gilt dial making process to me, most of which went over my head. He said that they start with artwork 12x the original size, and manually, by hand, use a pantograph machine to etch the printing plate. The surface of the dial, usually brass, would be polished and treated with some chemicals or electroplated another metal color that would create the color of the text. He told me the text color is hard to control because the base metal will react differently. The stencil or plate is used to create the black portion. (I do not know the exact process, maybe someone with better technical knowledge can explain) after the black layer, a layer of clear laquer would be used and then cured. After that it would be polished to a clean shine. If a second color was used, as in a depth rating, it would then be printed on top of the laquer using a metallic ink. This may explain why many dials are later missing the depth rating.
I later ended up working with a dial refinisher in Europe who was fanatical about trying to match the original process and I had the dial made. He sent me some images throughout the process, and I could really appreciate the technique that went into making these dials. “
From: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/what-is-gilt-t32106.html
deadpan
Active Member
From: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...lt-t32106.html
further on in that thread there is a user that posted the following examples of what seems to read as their own work. This looks amazing (I’ve removed the posters ID from these images, but they are not mine ;-)
further on in that thread there is a user that posted the following examples of what seems to read as their own work. This looks amazing (I’ve removed the posters ID from these images, but they are not mine ;-)
I don’t know if this is any help but I found a patent from the 1940’s which I think is explaining the process, to be honest it’s all a bit technical for me and went straight over my head.
https://www.freepatentsonline.com/3989603.html
https://www.freepatentsonline.com/3989603.html
i found that one too which led me to searching patents for various terms. The patent you posted is dealing with aluminum which is a different beast than brass in terms what you can do. Aluminum has more things you can do like anodizing.
From my experience anodising isn’t that thick which would explain why they used a galvanising process which can be applied much thicker.
So rereading the patent it references “the old way” of making relief dials with the base metal coming through. It mentions Swiss patent 498,834 but can’t readily find it online. It talks about brass dials. For all you Europeans who are awake this Texan is going to bed If you want to search
So found a brief description of the patent and it is this: dial is galvanically coated then varnished. Then the dial is stamped to provide the negative relief and then it mentions the stamped images’s varnish is removed I’m assuming through the stamping process. Then the dial is coated again with this time I am assuming gold or brass so that it fills in the negative relief stamped areas. Totally different way than other articles have mentioned.
It seems that there is a few different ways to do the dials, I honestly think that unless you intend of going down the route of making them as a business it’s going to be too costly due to the amount of specialist equipment and chemicals you need. Once my car is back on the road I’m going to go to my friends workshop and try doing it with his fibre laser, brass black marks easily and with a quick fine sanding and some lacquer I think you will get decent results.
Been reading up on Jeremy Davis the guy who started tempus. In one article he expands a bit more on the process of creating the dials:
the Gilt Submariner dials were created with a process called galvanization. This process was long, imperfect, and created dials that became tropical (faded from a black to brown) as they aged and were exposed to the elements of life. The reason for this is that the black was adhered to the brass dial plate via the galvanic process. The fonts and indexes (some of the earlier models had a track ring as well, the outer line connecting the markers) were not printed, but actually the brass plate that was protected by a clear film that when washed away, created a negative relief of those elements. The only printed detail on the dial was the depth rating, either in silver or red, and this was the only option for our watches.
So perhaps I was on the right track of nickel plating and forcing a black patina on it he nickel. Next up trying to get Jeremy Davis to tell me how the black is achieved.
the Gilt Submariner dials were created with a process called galvanization. This process was long, imperfect, and created dials that became tropical (faded from a black to brown) as they aged and were exposed to the elements of life. The reason for this is that the black was adhered to the brass dial plate via the galvanic process. The fonts and indexes (some of the earlier models had a track ring as well, the outer line connecting the markers) were not printed, but actually the brass plate that was protected by a clear film that when washed away, created a negative relief of those elements. The only printed detail on the dial was the depth rating, either in silver or red, and this was the only option for our watches.
So perhaps I was on the right track of nickel plating and forcing a black patina on it he nickel. Next up trying to get Jeremy Davis to tell me how the black is achieved.
I’m actually doing that this week but with toner transfer design and some dicropan t-4 which blackens brass then remove the toner transfer with acetone. Some of my test dials for blackness aren’t too bad and if I add a few more coats should look pretty uniform in black
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It will be interesting to see how that turns out, is there any chance that the acetone interferes with the blueing?
Ha no idea. I’m just experimenting and see what I get. My next step if this doesn’t give me something worthwhile or my possible plating and masking is laser etching.
If you’re thinking of plating the dial and then using a laser to reveal the dial underneath you’ll probably need to use a CO2 laser because a fibre laser may be to strong. I’ve used a fibre laser to white mark on anodising before but anodising is very thin so you can knock off the top surface to reveal the white underneath, but to get right down to the brass will be tricky.