Making a gilt dial (not decal)

[d4v3]

Because your VN dealer didn't have a clue what they were talking about?

That hydro technique is impractical for watch dials. It's nowhere near precise enough to position a piece of floating dial artwork on a dial less than 30mm diameter. And if this was the technique used to make true gilt dials, then those here who have spent considerable time researching the subject would know that this is how it's done. And it isn't. But hey, that's no reason to dismiss it as a fun technique to try. But as mentioned before, decals (no matter what technique is used to get them on the dial) will not result in print quality as good as the results from using the correct carrier for the printing image - a pad printing plate.

This is not a VN dealer he has made complex customs watch parts for me that includes "simple" parts as movement holders but also 2 complete custom cases out of blue prints, 2 column wheels for gen el primero movements as well as several custom gilt dials and bezels

we have previously talked about modding cases to fit different movements with the valueable aid of tech aspects from alligoat and automatico to mod MBW cases

so not really just a reseller guy as many other dealers

but yes i agree that the way to go seem to be a custom printing pad too

thanks for the view popperini, highly appreciated

 

[p0pperini]

This is not a VN dealer he has made complex customs watch parts for me that includes "simple" parts as movement holders but also 2 complete custom cases out of blue prints, 2 column wheels for gen el primero movements as well as several custom gilt dials and bezels

Please don't think I was insulting your VN watch parts maker d4v3. I've enormous respect for the skills of these specialist guys, and I know they can produce phenomenal work. It's just that, like any of us, when discussing techniques outside of our frame of expertise the discussion often becomes speculative. But I have complete faith in the experts here, who have poured considerable time and effort into exhaustively researching techniques that can be used while working towards reproducing true gilt dials in the same way as they are actually made.

 

[d4v3]

Please don't think I was insulting your VN watch parts maker d4v3. I've enormous respect for the skills of these specialist guys, and I know they can produce phenomenal work. It's just that, like any of us, when discussing techniques outside of our frame of expertise the discussion often becomes speculative. But I have complete faith in the experts here, who have poured considerable time and effort into exhaustively researching techniques that can be used while working towards reproducing true gilt dials in the same way as they are actually made.

Hey none taken popperini, and i do feel also enormous respect for all the wisdom and knwledge from experts in here from which i have learn many things in the past years, but my intention sharing this information is for other members in this thread that are trying new ways to make gilt dials, transfer paper, UV lamps, 3d printings, ink printings and other "new" ways to try to approach the same goal, i know VN techniques has nothing to do with genuine Rolex manufacturing processes and i dont mean by any meaning to teach anyone here, I simply share info from an old friend that make deecnt quality gilt dials for those who dare to try other ways, which its the ultimate reason for the forums to exist.

 

[d4v3]

A example of this guy work

tru gilt, not ruby mq, nd, phong

 

[chrome72]

Can confirm many reject dials have been made to get to a good dial. I need to tinker with ink to thinner ratios more to get good prints. Even then every print isn’t perfect. A little tiny spec here or there is off if the right amount of pressure isn’t used or the ink didn’t flood the cliche all the way.

I am pretty sure my process is near accurate in spirit but I am not sure if rolex used black ink to make a mask. I have read they used a clear coat as their ink and have also read some of their processes to make a gilt dial involved toxic chemicals (one of the earlier posts on this thread I think had a link to a watch museum on dial making and showed some bottles labeled poisonous to humans). So again, I think I’m there in spirit but not 100% accurate.

Really appreciate the dialogue.

Lastly, with hydro dipping I would think it would leave remnants behind on the dial and mess up electroplating.

 

[bigtiddygothgf]

Not completely related to gilt dials in particular but in regards to luming, I dont have much trouble with applied indices and hands but markers on flat dials (like gilt ones) seem tricky since my hands arent the steadiest. I'm sure practice helps but I dont wanna burn through pricy noctilumina just practicing. Has anyone thought of 3D printing a die to apply lume with? SLA/Resin printing would yield a nice detailed and smooth print.

If you 3D printed a die with the marker shapes raised up I feel like you could apply the lume to the raised markers and then either lower the dial or die down on to the other just enough to transfer. Something like a quality crystal press could be used to keep the motion vertical and precise. Maybe theres something I'm overlooking but with the right consistency and amount of lume it could work right?

I might be overthinking it but I dont see myself having much success with hand application and I'm a bit OCD about poorly applied lume.

 

[chrome72]

Not completely related to gilt dials in particular but in regards to luming, I dont have much trouble with applied indices and hands but markers on flat dials (like gilt ones) seem tricky since my hands arent the steadiest. I'm sure practice helps but I dont wanna burn through pricy noctilumina just practicing. Has anyone thought of 3D printing a die to apply lume with? SLA/Resin printing would yield a nice detailed and smooth print.

If you 3D printed a die with the marker shapes raised up I feel like you could apply the lume to the raised markers and then either lower the dial or die down on to the other just enough to transfer. Something like a quality crystal press could be used to keep the motion vertical and precise. Maybe theres something I'm overlooking but with the right consistency and amount of lume it could work right?

I might be overthinking it but I dont see myself having much success with hand application and I'm a bit OCD about poorly applied lume.

Sounds like pad printing There is a gentleman who made his own watch brand called Typsim which has a gilt dial, on his instagram feed he talks about some of the R&D and there is a post where he mentions the lume plots are pad printed on the dial. They wouldn't be pillowed or anything. I chatted with him at the start of this project about how gilt dials were made, he had a watch dial maker based in California make his.

 

[bigtiddygothgf]

Sounds like pad printing There is a gentleman who made his own watch brand called Typsim which has a gilt dial, on his instagram feed he talks about some of the R&D and there is a post where he mentions the lume plots are pad printed on the dial. They wouldn't be pillowed or anything. I chatted with him at the start of this project about how gilt dials were made, he had a watch dial maker based in California make his.

Yeah I figured it was pretty similar in principle to pad printing and guessed pad printing is how most modern printed markers are done, and also why they all seem to be flat with little to no depth to them. I was actually going to mention the pillowed lume look but it slipped my mind for some reason. With a rigid "pad" that isnt pressed down all the way (doesnt make full contact with the dial surface) I reckon puffy lume could probably be done. Maybe I'm overlooking something but is there any reason a rigid pad wouldnt work or properly transfer?

 

[manodeoro]

A example of this guy work

tru gilt, not ruby mq, nd, phong

That one looks really good !!! PMed you

 

[manodeoro]

Not completely related to gilt dials in particular but in regards to luming, I dont have much trouble with applied indices and hands but markers on flat dials (like gilt ones) seem tricky since my hands arent the steadiest. I'm sure practice helps but I dont wanna burn through pricy noctilumina just practicing. Has anyone thought of 3D printing a die to apply lume with? SLA/Resin printing would yield a nice detailed and smooth print.

If you 3D printed a die with the marker shapes raised up I feel like you could apply the lume to the raised markers and then either lower the dial or die down on to the other just enough to transfer. Something like a quality crystal press could be used to keep the motion vertical and precise. Maybe theres something I'm overlooking but with the right consistency and amount of lume it could work right?

I might be overthinking it but I dont see myself having much success with hand application and I'm a bit OCD about poorly applied lume.

Printing the indices or numbers (for 3, 6, 9 dials) in white on the gilt dial before luming is really helpful to get a good result.
Even if you lume is a tad "off" it will be much less noticeable.

 

[manodeoro]

Not completely related to gilt dials in particular but in regards to luming, I dont have much trouble with applied indices and hands but markers on flat dials (like gilt ones) seem tricky since my hands arent the steadiest. I'm sure practice helps but I dont wanna burn through pricy noctilumina just practicing. Has anyone thought of 3D printing a die to apply lume with? SLA/Resin printing would yield a nice detailed and smooth print.

If you 3D printed a die with the marker shapes raised up I feel like you could apply the lume to the raised markers and then either lower the dial or die down on to the other just enough to transfer. Something like a quality crystal press could be used to keep the motion vertical and precise. Maybe theres something I'm overlooking but with the right consistency and amount of lume it could work right?

I might be overthinking it but I dont see myself having much success with hand application and I'm a bit OCD about poorly applied lume.

Printing the indices or numbers (for 3, 6, 9 dials) in white on the gilt dial before luming is really helpful to get a good result.
Even if you lume is a tad "off" it will be much less noticeable.

 

[manodeoro]

Here's an Explorer I made some month ago ... took that pic before lume work ...

 

[chrome72]

Just wanted to show some more pics. I have a few layers of lacquer on but its not smoothed out and polished. The lacquer gives the electroplating a super dark look. Can't wait to see it polished. I wanted to show the dial with light not catching it and then how it lights up once the light hits it. Enjoy! I realized why my print was correct on the Y axis but not the X axis....when i drilled holes into my metal cliche they were slightly off. The guy who built my dial holder suggested filing lightly to expand the holes a tad over, so I will tinker with that and then I should be printing dead center prints every time.

 

[manodeoro]

Here's an Explorer I made some month ago ... took that pic before lume work ...

 

[chrome72]

Not really an update but for confirmation from MQ the Vietnam gilt dials are indeed electroplated.

will be working one night in the next few days to print some more dials. I spent some time filing away my cliche holes ever so slightly to help center my cliche. My initial drilling of holes was slightly off.

 

[chrome72]

Been awhile. Covid and the death of my dad took over my December.

I goofed up on centering my holes in my cliche for pad printing (should have punched them not drilled). It’s taking lots of tinkering to rectify that and it’s just a mess each time I retry.

I chanced upon a Seiko dial modder who filled me in on his tricks for acid etching dials and he used a laminator and toner transfer like I did previously. He aimed for 10 min. Low and behold I retried but instead of 10 passes I aimed for 10 min as many passes. Here is my electroplate resist. Nailed it. Comparing the results of toner transfer vs toner transfer, pad printing is definitely nice but toner transfer is just about there. Toner transfer is definitely more budget friendly.

on a whim I started a conversation with a dial manufacture in Hong Kong who I believe made gilt dials for another company. They stated they either use paint only or they nickel plate then paint. Phong told me the Vietnam dial makers electroplate. I am still leaning towards plating and applying a post plating treatment to get the black and then tinkering with the formula and using UV light to get shades of brown, yellow and rust. If you zoom in on some of the high res tropical dials it does look like “rust”.

 

[chrome72]

Well went to plate and took the utmost precaution in terms of cleaning and wearing gloves and while the resist was perfect the plating turned out not perfect but here it is. It’s funny because when I was less careful with plating the electroplate turned out great on previous trials. Next one should be a final product now I got the resist down to great results each time.

while the black looks splotchy once lacquer is on it becomes a deep uniform black for those curious.

 

[jamiex]

Are you using zinc before the nickle?

 

[chrome72]

Are you using zinc before the nickle?

No. Straight black nickel on brass. I might try etching post plating/wiping away the resist to get some depth. Anyone know if ferric chloride would etch black nickel? I can't really find much on that specifically.

 

[jamiex]

Try having a crack with a quick layer of zinc, I think that’s how the gen’s were made which makes sense because they call it a ‘galvanic process’ and if your going to galvanise some thing you zinc plate it, this will also give you your depth.