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Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

KJ2020

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Thank you p0perini and KJ2020 for coming to the BP’s defense.

I’m curious to hear your take on the font type on the BP dial, particularly the “1000 ft = 300 m” line. At first, I thought it was a factory error, but it looks like this was based on a D6 serviced dial from one source that I was able to find. I cannot confirm this and haven’t been able to find another photo of the Kermit using this “D6” dial.

I haven't followed every dial version bro but I have seen the short ft space m layout on both 5 and 6 digit LNs and LVs. I always think of those nuances as unimportant unless you are taking out all the stops to make an entirely period correct Franken.

Here's a gen 16610 LV with that dial

https://timepeaks.com/item/zurr525/flist05/

Something that I can't tolerate is a rep dial feature that never appeared in gen on a model like the frogfoot coronet on some BP GMT dials. I wouldn't want it even if I liked the design (which I don't) because it just isn't right so I understand your reaction to the short ft space m Sub dials.

Gen GMTs never had a frogfoot coronet dial.

Gen-BP-38-Medium.jpg
 

McPwn

Active Member
21/9/20
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Yep, the crown guards on the ARF and JF are like a little teapot: short and stout.

BP

JF

ARF


BP

JF

ARF

BP

JF

ARF

BP definitely has the most accurate CG's for sure. JF is the worst, ARF is not bad here. BP mid-case could be a good franken candidate.
 

flextime

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22/3/20
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BP definitely has the most accurate CG's for sure. JF is the worst, ARF is not bad here. BP mid-case could be a good franken candidate.

Frankening a BP doesn’t seem to be worth it to me. To get a gen spec retaining crystal ring and bezel assembly requires heavy modding of the case.

I haven’t measure it yet (still waiting for that caliper) but the crystal looks to bigger to me.

The crown guard on the ARF is pretty good. The other flaws on the BP would overshadow the CGs.

The BP Kermit is fine as beater that can scratch an itch, nothing more.
 
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KJ2020

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BPs with a 3135 have a gen-spec crystal and crystal gasket. They will take a gen crystal 1:1 with no modding. The ETA clone versions do not, those crystals have a straight edge profile and the cyclops is in the ETA position. They will take a gen crystal by using two gaskets. The extra gasket will not show under the insert. Of course then you need a dial with a Rolex date window, lol.

hWzks.jpg


BP 3135 crystal on left, BP ETA crystal on right

RDwAX.jpg


Neither BP bezel assembly is gen-spec in construction or size. They both are held to the retaining ring with the 8 sided wire and can take an insert up to 37.5mm OD. Gen is 37.65mm +/- about .05mm. There are a lot of aftermarket inserts that will fit though, usually you can find an OK one if not happy with stock.
 
Last edited:

2841

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Thanks for the review, i've been eying a 5 digit for a while :)

I'll go with the ARF, but im a bit confused about the 2 recent releases from ARF. Everything is identical on both releases? It's only the rehaut right? So the choice is with or without rehaut, or is there something i missed?
 

P..DR..D

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Thanks for taking the times to do this flextime

Always great when doing research to come across these type of side by side reviews so just wanted to give a shout out to say I appreciate it.
 

Tekumseh

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I remember seeing a post, where a member has reworked an BP case to take gen bezel and dial.
Wouldn't this make a BP case "most" accurate (if lugs are reshaped as well, of course)

Unfortunately I didn't subscribed and couldn't find it anymore
 

flextime

You're Saying I Can Sell?
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I remember seeing a post, where a member has reworked an BP case to take gen bezel and dial.
Wouldn't this make a BP case "most" accurate (if lugs are reshaped as well, of course)

Unfortunately I didn't subscribed and couldn't find it anymore

It require a bit of machining to rework BP case. Skills that’s beyond me (and many of us). At that point, buying a ST case may be the better route.
 

Oscarwilder123

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Curious if anyone has swapped in a Gen Dial into the ARF version if so was it plug and play or does it have same issue as JF with the inside of the case being bigger then the gen causing dial to shift when setting the time
 

heska

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Problem is you have movement tab instead of the screw notch. Your dial can be off center but shouldn’t move if the tab are fixed correctly. Mine don’t at least. But the problem should persist on ARF
 

wisedennis

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The 5 digit sub is one of my favorite reference. So much so, that I bought a bunch of Kermits from different factories and did a comparison to see 'who da best'. Here, we have the ARF, JF and BP (all stock at the moment) for comparison. Absent is a gen or a TC.
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

ARF - JF - BP

Availability

The ARF and the BP are the only models available from TDs currently. The ARF is currently listed by TDs for $488, making it the most costly of the bunch. The JF can still be found via M2M/BST every once in a while for $350-400 (unmodded). The BP comes with a SA3135 or an A2836. For this comparison, we have the SA3135, which has the correct date window location and crown height. The BP 3135 is currently on special for $228, normally $308.

ARF

Overall, the ARF is a great rep and the most gen-like option available, today. With a little franken, the ARF is a very satisfying watch.

The major issue is the datewheel font being too thicc and the font being wrong. This has been discussed at length by others, so just change the DW for a gen, or swap out the entire movement for a VR or VS3135. The SH3135 isn't bad at all, mine has issue and it's just easier to do a swap and fix the dw and movement at once.

The insert is actually quite good. The green is very vibrant and looks closest to the B4 insert. If you can get a gen (about $400), do so. If not, I think it's fine.

The rehaut looks fine from the naked eye, but it doesn't stand a chance if you do a side by side comparison with a gen.

The ARF bracelet is quite good, especially compared to the BP. The solid endlinks has no gaps, but the recess is not great, especially on the bottom right at 5 o'clock. SEL is an issue across the board here.

The dial looks decent. The print could be whiter, but without doing a side by side, you're not going to notice that. The lume (in daylight) on these are apparently too creamy compared to gen. But since I don't have one to compare, I'm going to say it's fine as well. If you get a gen dial, make sure you get gen hands as well. Mismatch lume is the worst!

JF

The JF is my favorite out of the box. From my research, JF and ARF is the same factory and the main difference here is that ARF uses 904L and JF uses 316L steel. I suspect anyone looking for a 5-digit would want to franken it. In which case, you can pick up an ARF as your base.

The datewheel isn't bad on this, although it's still a little on the thicker side. From the gen photos available online, it doesn't look that off. So I'm going to say it's acceptable, but should be changed if franken. The older SH3135 are noticeably less smooth. So, if you re opening it up, a VS or VR movement swap would be my move.

The insert on the JF is actually my favorite and it's entirely a judgement call. I just happen to like the darker green that looks metallic black at certain angle. It's very cool, but photos doesn't do it justice.

The bracelet feels similar to the ARF. The clasp is a little tight, but it could be due to wear from previous owner. The SEL on the JF is the best of the bunch, but that isn't saying much. It's basically the best of the worst. They all suck. This one just suck less.

Same issue with the rehaut for the JF, although I feel like this is slightly crisper or 'less suck' than the ARF and BP.

BP

The BP, while a bargain, has some major flaws -- bezel, insert, lugs, case, bracelet and dial -- that's hard to look past. I knew going in that the BP isn't gen instruction, especially the bezel assembly, which means that you can't do an insert swap.

The insert green is closest to the B3 lime variant. The color isn't bad, but it's not for me. The number on the bezel is smaller, leaving a noticeable gap between the bezel ring and the crystal.

The lugs have these aggressive chamfers that's very hard to ignore. The case looks to be a different size (I ordered a caliper, but it's not here yet), but to the naked eye, you can see the difference.

The bracelet is much lighter than the ARF and JF, and it feels cheap by comparison. It lacks heft, and the hallow midlinks are probably thinner and the other links may not be solid. The SEL is the worst of the bunch, and sits completely flushed to the lugs. The clasp is actually ok.

The dial was said to be the best of the bunch, based on a few comments in the forums. I couldn't definitely say why it was said to be better. But from what I was able to gather, the lume on the BP is whiter during daylight. Again, this is something I cannot confirm. What I can confirm is that the print on the dial is, unlike the rest. Especially the "1000 ft = 300m" line. You'll notice in the photos below that the spacing, kerning, typeface are different than gen or the other two. From what I've gathered, the BP dial is based on a D6 serviced dial.

Here are some comparison photos:
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

ARF
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

JF
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

BP
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

Gen (taken from Christie's)



r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

ARF
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

JF
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

BP
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

Gen (taken from Christie's)



r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

ARF
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

JF
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

BP



r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

ARF
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

JF
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

BP



r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

ARF
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

JF
r/RepTime - Kermit 16610LV Comparison: ARF vs. JF. vs. BP

BP

Final thoughts

Like any reps, all three Kermits has their flaws. To make a decent 5-digit Kermit, you really need to do some light frankening, specifically the DW (or movement) is a must. For those seeking closer to perfection, the insert, dial, hands, and bracelet would need to be changed.

I went into this really wanting to like the BP as the good-enough option, especially for the price. Given its limitations, it's really not worth modding. But the flaws listed is just too great for me to ignore. If you want a 5 digit kermit, the ARF is the only way to go, if buying from a TD.
hi mate would you still have the photos?
would you please update the photos again if you have a chance?

thanks!
dennis