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Noob Daytona 116520 with 4130 - "The movement itself is worth the price."

bmwe36

Horology Curious
3/8/18
22
15
0
I'm a newbie that was researching Daytona reps to see which watch would be the best watch to purchase as a gift.

It all started with this thread: https://forum.replica-watch.info/for...s-arf-daytona/

The comment that stood out most to me was that "The 4130 clone movement alone is worth the price."

As a newbie, I didn't know why until I did some research. It wasn't just about working chronograph, it really about the solid engineering of the 4130 and the marvel that a Chinese factory was able to replicate most of it. I purchased the Noob White Dial/SS Bezel 116520. Not only was it beautiful, it was solid. (The Black Dial 116520 has thicker subdial rings, a lot of people are modifying ARF dials and bezels to fit in Noob watches.) I saw no need to mod the white dial 116520 watch.

Here are reasons I went with Noob.

Reason 1 - The 4130 Movement is a Chronograph with a Column Wheel and Vertical Clutch

From Seiko's Website

A column wheel system is used to control the starting and stopping of the stopwatch. Its system ensures precise, error free control of the chronograph operation. The column wheel is designed to reduce stress on the clutch and lever, minimizing impact on the movement when the start/stop button is pushed.

The vertical clutch system was created to prevent the second hand from jumping when the stopwatch START button is pressed. The shuddering of the stopwatch that easily occurs with horizontal clutches is eliminated.


The Valjoux 7750 is a cam actuated movement. It's not bad per se. A lot of swiss watches use it. Even Omega switched from column wheel cal 321 movement to cal. 861 movement that was still approved by NASA.


With that said, there's no denying that column wheel chronographs are pricier, partly because it requires more labor to create.

The columns, when produced with a CNC machine, will likely end up with burring in various spots. While burrs are normal in just about any fresh CNC part, they must be smoothed out to ensure normal operation of the mechanism. Needless to say, removing burrs from in between the teeth is a tedious task.

Column wheel chronos generally start and stop better. The second hand doesn't jump. And the pushers feel better when you push them.

Column wheel chronos from brands like Seiko and Longhines retail for around $2000.
I now understand why people say that a Noob Daytona with a 4130 clone is worth the price just for the movement alone.


Reason 2 - The 4130 Movement has a 72 Hour Power Reserve

Rolex was able to reduce the number of components with a new, patented solution for the chronograph mechanism. The extra space has been used to house a larger mainspring, which increased the power-reserve capacity from 50 to 72 hours.

Amazing for a 40mm watch! I tested the Noob. I manually wound it and let it sit. I didn't expect it to last more than 70 hours, but it did. This is great if you don't wear it for a couple days so you don't have to adjust the time.


The Valjoux 7750 is supposed to last around 44 hours.


Reason 3 - The 4130 Movement has a bidirectional rotor

The 4130 rotor is bidirectional. The 7750 rotor is unidirectional. What does this mean?

From the moment you pick it up, the Valjoux 7750 most certainly has it. As you move it, it wobbles at you in a friendly sort of way. That’s because the rotor – the small weight that converts motion to power – only winds when it rotates clockwise. When it moves the other way, it’s freewheeling. The inertia of the weight means it spins on its central ball bearing race – hence the trademark friendly wobble.

It will feel different. People that know watches will recognize the trademark feel. A lot of people only pay attention to the weight of the watch, but the "feel" of the watch is more than just the weight. Unidirectional watches feel (and sound) different. Sometimes unidirectional movements are loud. That's why you see threads of people doing things to silence their Miyota 9015 (another unidirectional rotor) and the 7750. Half the forum says the unidirectional rotors are loud, the other half don't notice it (or are in denial).

The bottom line is that if you have a 7750 in your Daytona Rep, you have a unidirectional rotor in a watch that's supposed to have a bidirectional rotor.

Reason 4 - When Rolex designed the 4130 Movement, they designed it to have the seconds at the 6 o'clock position

Rolex designed the Daytona's new movement to have the seconds at 6 o'clock. This sets the Daytona apart and makes it harder to replicate.
Rep factories would use gears to move the sub dial positions. Fortunately, for ARF they only moved one the 9 o'clock subdial to the 6 o'clock while leaving the other sub dials not functioning.

IWC heavily modified a 7750 to move the 9 o'clock sub dial to 6 o'clock and it works great. However, when Chinese factories tried to do this, the reps seem to have issues with the three gears they use to move the 6'o clock seconds hands. People claim they've gotten better over time adding jewels to reduce the friction between the gears and the plates. Some people say that the geartrain puts additional strain on the movement.

The bottom line: The 4130 is designed to have its seconds hand at the 6 o'clock, while the 7750 isn't.


Reason 5 - The 4130 movement is thinner than the 7750. Noob 4130 closer to gen thickness.

The 4130 is 6.5 mm, while the 7750 is 7.9 mm.

ARF "solves" the issue by freezing the subdials making the movement thinner. The resulting watch is thinner than it's predecessor, but still thicker than the Noob Daytona. Why?
ARF thinned the movement, but thickened it by adding a decorative bridge. A piece of metal designed to make the 7750 movement look like a 4130. Not only that, the bridge takes up space, so that the rotor is light/thin. Did they do this to add the proper weight to the watch? It does not help the watches function at all. Does the factory care more about looks than about the watch functioning?

Because of this the case back is thicker to accommodate the movement.
Even if you remove the bridge and replace the rotor. You have to get another caseback because shaving the case back has it limitations. In other words, it will be difficult to match gen thickness.


Conclusion - The problem with ARF Daytona with Modified 7750: Beauty Over Function

The final reason that made me choose ARF over Noob was the thin rotor. The rotor weight may have been too light to wind the watch. I would have to replace (or find someone) to replace the rotor AND remove the bridge because the new rotor wouldn't fit. It doesn't cost much for the person to have the tools, but for a person like me it would take time and money. So purchasing an ARF meant buying the watch + Rotor + labor (or tools) + time. Where I could just buy the Noob OOTB. Christmas was coming and I knew there was a waitlist for these watches, so I didn't want to stress out modding the watch before Christmas so I purchased the Noob and I'm happy.


So what do I recommend for Daytona Rep

Option 1: Noob Daytona no mod (you can mod later) The Noob is a little thicker than gen and requires a mod to the gasket ring.

Choice 1 - 116520 White Dial - v2 Looks beautiful. It's not a perfect rep but is still beautiful without mods.
Choice 2 - 116500 White Dial/Black Bezel "Panda" - Beautiful Watch. Not Perfect.
Choice 3 - 116500 or 116520 Black Dial. Thicker Subdial Rings. Bothers some people, doesn't bother others. Most flawed out of the 4 choices..

Option 2: Noob Daytona with ARF Dial (and Bezel)
The ARF Dial won't fit in the Noob without modification. There are modders working on this and the result us beautiful.

Option 3: Buy ARF Daytona and buy Noob Later. and merge them together.

Option 4: Wait for Noob to improve Dial/Bezel.
I joined the rep game late. I missed out on TC Subs and GMF factory going down had made me realize that if I see something that is special to purchase it. Factories tend to fix one thing and mess up another and it can be years before they fix it, so may as well get it now.

Option 5: Noob Daytona with Gen Dial, Bezel, and other parts.
This cost $$$


Option 6: Hope ARF get a 4130 clone.
Angus says JF/ARF will not get a 4130 clone. Who knows?
Even if they do, I've had a bad experience with their QC on their movements. When I got a JF OP 114300 with SH3132, after I received it, the watch watch would freeze.
When I got it serviced, I learned that one of the gears was missing a tooth and that some of the parts were rough in addition to the debris in the watch. I had to replace parts.

I haven't got the Noob serviced but it seems to be running well.

So there's my opinion after purchasing a Noob and reading over 50 pages on this forum. Thanks RWI!
 

Beemer913

Active Member
9/10/17
212
50
28
Nice post. Thanks for the info. Personally I don't think anyone is gonna notice the difference in thickness, that's why I'd get myself a noob. Working Chrono, great movement. And still noob quality!
 

guru

Advisor
Advisor
30/9/06
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Good post with a small mistake
the final reason......check it out


Sent from iX
 

brawndo

Thirst Mutilator
17/9/18
155
85
28
Option 1: Noob Daytona no mod (you can mod later) The Noob is a little thicker than gen and requires a mod to the gasket ring.

Isn't the noob the same thickness as gen? I swear I just read that in guru's other post.
 

Alexccmeister

Active Member
8/11/18
446
108
43
Good post with a small mistake
the final reason......check it out


Sent from iX

You are right. I think he meant Noob.

But poster did a good job summarising the Daytona. I have been thinking about getting this also. Thanks.
 

mari115

Put Some Respect On My Name
9/6/18
4,439
2,478
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Nearer than you think
You are right. I think he meant Noob.

But poster did a good job summarising the Daytona. I have been thinking about getting this also. Thanks.

it is like .4 mm thicker, because of the taller bezel and thicker gasket, in order to reach gen thickness you have to either get a gen/arf gasket or sand the noob gasket down to size
 
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mari115

Put Some Respect On My Name
9/6/18
4,439
2,478
113
Nearer than you think
Yeah, i don't understand people who trash it by saying that it sucks because of the externals, dude, just put on the ARF parts and you get yourself a fully functional daytona with 4130 movement for less than 1/10 of the price
 
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jcher

I'm Pretty Popular
Patron
Certified
1/8/17
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Really nice post, enjoyed reading it :) thanks
 

Adrenix

Active Member
5/12/18
333
126
43
Good post and agree.

​​​​​​Noob base
arf dial
Arf bezel

116500 panda for me
​​​​​
 

ssouthall6

Put Some Respect On My Name
10/10/13
3,539
1,562
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Really nice analysis and good to see a noob doing their research.

The noob 116520 v2 bezel looks slightly more refined but the v2 ARF bezel is better. The v1 ARF bezel is slightly better than the v2 but all are just about believable when you consider the 116520 has had at least 8 variations by dial and bezel, all of which are marginally different.

The noob 116520 dial is a big tell because it uses the font of the 116500 dial so you are quite right, it needs a dial swap and it certainly needs a gasket swap.

I am still on the fence about buying the noob and the ARF. Considering you could fund the modding by selling the donor, you are probably talking around $900 for a nice looking, albeit 100% replica daytona. And it's that final point that is the sticking point for me, because this is almost certainly tacit collusion from both factories to ensure each maximise sales.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Adrenix

Active Member
5/12/18
333
126
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What about labour?

Noob would corner the whole market with some work on the dial. Seems a waste to do all that investment on the movement then go in with ARF to share the aesthetic work.