• Tired of adverts on RWI? - Subscribe by clicking HERE and PMing Trailboss for instructions and they will magically go away!

Frustrated noob builder needs help....

john45

You're Saying I Can Sell?
29/4/18
87
18
8
Sonoma
I recently decided to try to assemble a couple of 16610 Submariners using Swiss movements and Alpha Europe cases. The Alpha cases need modification to the crown guards which went well and I was initially pleased with how nicely things were going. However, selecting compatible parts and assembling them has been a frustrating experience despite spending considerable time reading the forums and watching appropriate videos.

I ordered an ETA 2824 and Alpha Europe case for the first build. After ordering the movement, I read that a tall (H4) pinion set would be needed to fit (2824) hands due to the increased height of the movement with the Noob DWO I also purchased. OK, ordered the pinion set from Ofrei and had it installed by the nearby smith for $75. Problem is, the H4 hour hand shaft is 1 mm diameter vice the 1.5 mm standard shaft and the 2824/2836 Clark hand set I ordered off eBay will not fit. Also, the Alpha cases arrived with non-cyclops crystals installed and the Clark 25-295-C replacement crystals I ordered were to small to fit the non-standard Alpha cases which need a 30.34 mm crystal.

Hence, my first question is: Where can I source rep Rolex 16610 hands for the 1.0 mm hour hand pinion and .9 mm minute hand pinion on my H4 pinion set? Second question is: Where do I get a 30.34 mm Cyclops crystal for the Alpha case set? Alpha doesn’t sell them separately, grrrrrr.

After the learning experience regarding 2824’s and DWOs, I ordered an ETA 2836 and a TC DWO for the second build. When releasing the stem from the 2836, I apparently pushed too hard on the release button and the button has disappeared from sight. I believe this is called “screwing up the keyless” and can be remedied, but I’m unable to find a good video on how to do this. Can anyone help?

Lastly, I’d very much appreciate some guidance regarding locating reasonably priced parts that will actually fit together to build a sub in case I fail completely with these builds or decide to do this again. I suspect other noobs would also appreciate this information.

Thanks in advance…….
 

KJ2020

Time Traveler
Supporter
12/3/18
32,399
56,905
113
After the learning experience regarding 2824’s and DWOs, I ordered an ETA 2836 and a TC DWO for the second build. When releasing the stem from the 2836, I apparently pushed too hard on the release button and the button has disappeared from sight. I believe this is called “screwing up the keyless” and can be remedied, but I’m unable to find a good video on how to do this. Can anyone help?

Have a look at the video below. You should probably glance through most of it, but the part you are interested in starts at ~5:20. You do NOT need to remove the setting wheel to fix the keyless works, and I don't recommend it. You can lose the click spring too easily. You also don't need to remove the calendar parts, except the datewheel. To reset the keyless works, just take the pieces apart like Mark does in the video, then skip ahead to where he re-installs them. Take pictures of everything you do, in the order you do it so you can easily follow the reverse steps.

After you get it reset, TEST it, BEFORE you put the dial and hands back on! Practice doing it without fouling the keyless works. Use a 1.2mm (120) screwdriver to release the stem. There is a ledge in the release hole that will STOP the screwdriver from letting you push the release button down too far. Despite this, BARELY PUSH the release button while pulling gently out on the stem to release it. As soon as you feel it pop, relax all pressure off the screwdriver. When you are competent and confident you can release the stem any day of the week, THEN put the dial and hands back on.

 
  • Like
Reactions: john45

tripdog

Super Moderator
Staff member
Global Moderator
Certified
9/7/12
22,482
17,775
113
Well aside from the keyless issue, which is fairly simple, the rest of it is just a maze of problems.

You've got a 2824 which has the following hand sizes: .90/1.50/.25

If you've bought an ETA H4 pinion conversion set it should have the corresponding sized pinions - almost all ETA movements have the same hand sizes with just some minor variations in second hand size.

If you've bought a set of ETA 2824 hands then these should fit on the movement, if they don't then either you bought the wrong hands, the wrong H4 pinion set or your watch smith has some how installed the wrong parts - although I don't see how this would be possible . . .

As for the crystal, you will find a crystal of the right diameter in any watch parts supply store, but you will almost certainly have a problem with cyclops alignment unless the crystal is for watches fitted with an ETA movement and a corresponding dial.
That means you'll have to remove the cyclops and re-position it over the date window. Personally I would find a crystal with a cyclops of approx' the right magnification, remove the cyclops and glue it to the Alpha crystal, it's by far the easiest solution.

Your 2836 may not have the right stem height for the Alpha case - there's a big difference in stem height between a 2824 and a 2836.
If your hour pinion really is 1.00 in diameter then that's a very unusual size, I ve no idea what calibre movement they're for - you'll have to go through the list of hands on Offrei or where ever and finding hands in the style you want with the correct dimensions.

Whilst your enthusiasm for your new hobby is laudable, you're running before you can walk in terms of builds. You can't buy random parts and expect them all to fit together - there is no store on the planet that only sells watch parts that automatically all fit together - all stores sell parts that can potentially fit together if you know what you are buying.
You wouldn't be able to take random parts from 5 different makes of car and 12 different models and then just slot them all together, and it's the same with watches.

Things like stem height, movement diameter and height, hand sizes, date window position etc are all important criteria which need to be taken into account when assembling parts - and they will influence and impact on each other meaning everything must be compatible.
 

yodog

Put Some Respect On My Name
Patron
Certified
2/9/11
3,570
1,659
113
In my parent's basement
I dont know what else to say since tripdog said everything that needs to be said.

I think the problem here is your Alpha case, not sure what that is. Best bet if you want to learn/mod things to just not bother with trying to piece everything together, you should buy a premade sub and just work from there. Changing to an H4 pinion also is quite easy, takes about 5 minutes if your just working from a base movement and not removing dial/hands.

You must have purchased the incorrect H4 pinion set - did they come in square packaging with an ETA on the back?
 

john45

You're Saying I Can Sell?
29/4/18
87
18
8
Sonoma
I dont know what else to say since tripdog said everything that needs to be said.

I think the problem here is your Alpha case, not sure what that is. Best bet if you want to learn/mod things to just not bother with trying to piece everything together, you should buy a premade sub and just work from there. Changing to an H4 pinion also is quite easy, takes about 5 minutes if your just working from a base movement and not removing dial/hands.

You must have purchased the incorrect H4 pinion set - did they come in square packaging with an ETA on the back?

I've also come to the conclusion that the Alpha cases only make things more difficult and am looking for other options. There's a lot of information in this link: https://forum.replica-watch.info/fo...-the-ultimate-rolex-reference-guide-by-bonesy, but unfortunately, a lot of broken links also.

This is the list of parts I bought from Ofrei. As I recall, there was not a kit as such, just parts in separate bags:
cnNFR.png


Also, it appears that I took a beating at the watch smith's, he told me that he'd have to do an hours worth of work to install the H4 set.

I'm getting the idea that a Cartel case set might be the way to go, but I'm unsure where to source one. If I asked Andrew at Trusty Time to source one, would he even know what I'm talking about?

Thanks again, John
 

tripdog

Super Moderator
Staff member
Global Moderator
Certified
9/7/12
22,482
17,775
113
I've also come to the conclusion that the Alpha cases only make things more difficult and am looking for other options. There's a lot of information in this link: https://forum.replica-watch.info/for...uide-by-bonesy, but unfortunately, a lot of broken links also.

This is the list of parts I bought from Ofrei. As I recall, there was not a kit as such, just parts in separate bags:
cnNFR.png


Also, it appears that I took a beating at the watch smith's, he told me that he'd have to do an hours worth of work to install the H4 set.

I'm getting the idea that a Cartel case set might be the way to go, but I'm unsure where to source one. If I asked Andrew at Trusty Time to source one, would he even know what I'm talking about?

Thanks again, John

Forget Cartel cases, and the Bonesy tutorial which is for different model Subs.

Lets stick with what you've got and try to make it work rather than just buying more stuff.

A quick look at Alpha Europes site and I see that they say their cases are for ETA 2824 & 2836 cases. This is nonsense, the difference between the 2 movements means the case is either for one or the other but not both movements.
Looking at the pics and the crown position the ETA 2836 is the one that's going to fit the best. This is easy to confirm - put the movement on a movement pad, or something circular that will support it and allow you to pick it up and flip it over. Place the dial spacer on the movement (steel ring that prevents the date wheel from rubbing against the dial), put the dial in place, put the case over the whole thing, flip it over - holding the dial in place with a finger. Look down the tube, if the hole in the movement where the stem goes is pretty much in the centre of the tube hole then the movement fits the case.

Next check if your date lines up in the window on the dial - pretty simple to do, the dial is already on the movement, if the date lines up in the window then you're OK. If the numbers are on the outer edge of the window then you need to buy a Date Wheel Overlay - you can get them from Raffles Dials - you need a DWO for an ETA movement that will fit a Rolex dial - his site explains things clearly.

Next the hands. You don't need a H4 conversion set - it just means the hour hand will be pretty close to the dial, but it should clear the indices. The minute hand may need a slight upward tilt to help it clear the indices, the second hand should be OK. If the hands you bought don't fit the 2824 or the 2836 then you've bought the wrong ones. Raffles dials sells hands for ETA movements.

The crystal. As I said before, the easiest way around this is to buy a crystal with cyclops, remove the cyclops (heat it up with a soldering iron then slice it off with a razor blade, or soak the crystal in acetone for 24 hours which will melt the glue. Then you glue the cyclops in position over the date on the Alpha crystal - or you could just leave it without cyclops like the old style Sea Dwellers.

You'll need a movement ring, if you haven't already got one. The inner diam' should be 26 mm (the same as the outer diam' of he movement) and the outer diam' should be the same as the inner diam' of the case where the movement sits - usually about 28 - 29 mm. Raffles Time (not Raffles dials) sells movement rings, but you need to know the inner and outer diam' before purchasing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KJ2020

palaufreak

Renowned Member
7/7/16
833
592
93
Sorry my ignorance. What's an Alfa case?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

john45

You're Saying I Can Sell?
29/4/18
87
18
8
Sonoma
Sorry my ignorance. What's an Alfa case?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Actually, its "Alpha" case, a submariner style case sold by Alpha Europe.

Thanks everyone for your help. The most important thing I'm learning here is how little I actually know......

I believe that I have all the parts on hand to complete one watch with the exception of a proper crown.
 

john45

You're Saying I Can Sell?
29/4/18
87
18
8
Sonoma
Thanks to all the help received, I've made some progress on assembling the 2836 rep. I was able to put the keyless back in place using the YouTube video as a guide and install the DWO. I installed the dial and spacer and commenced to install the hands. The hour and minute hands went on properly, but I couldn't get the pin on the second hand to seat. Close inspection revealed the problem:

MKPZQ.jpg


Clearly, there is no hole for the second hand pin. Here's a link to the 2836 purchase site: https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Origin...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Question, do some 2836 movements come without provision for a second hand??? The sales site refers to a 90/150/25 hand set. Am I missing something here? Perhaps a cap to remove from the second hand pinion?

Thanks in advance, John
 

tripdog

Super Moderator
Staff member
Global Moderator
Certified
9/7/12
22,482
17,775
113
Thanks to all the help received, I've made some progress on assembling the 2836 rep. I was able to put the keyless back in place using the YouTube video as a guide and install the DWO. I installed the dial and spacer and commenced to install the hands. The hour and minute hands went on properly, but I couldn't get the pin on the second hand to seat. Close inspection revealed the problem:

MKPZQ.jpg


Clearly, there is no hole for the second hand pin. Here's a link to the 2836 purchase site: https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Origin...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Question, do some 2836 movements come without provision for a second hand??? The sales site refers to a 90/150/25 hand set. Am I missing something here? Perhaps a cap to remove from the second hand pinion?

Thanks in advance, John

You've made good progress so far.

The second hand has a tube which slides on to the pinion in the movement - there is no hole. It's a very thin pin in the centre of the hand stack - I can't tell if it's still present in your pic as it's taken from above - you can see it in the second pic in the link you gave. If you are missing that pinion on your movement then it's likely you snapped it off - it doesn't take much to break them.

Post a pic taken at a slight angle to show the pinion sticking out from the hands.