As TC starts to offer sterile sub cases, i.e. cases without rehaut and lug engravings, it may be essential to post a basic guide to pursuing your own period-correct TC Sub. With this, members don’t need to often ask.
Sterile TC sub c/o Emdeevee
Let me again just mention some basics:
• Mix and matching gen Rolex parts from different periods is a norm. You will see a T series (1997) with incorrect Swiss Made dial from 2002. You will see a W series (1994) fitted with a new ARed crystal. It all depends on the owner and what upgrades he wants done on his own gen watch.
• Rolex does not officially announce minor changes so there are no hard and fast rules. However, info sharing among owners and aficionados abound not only online but also through GTGs that give us information on such transitional changes.
• This is not about the quality of rep versions as it’s not the topic at hand.
But if one wants to be period-correct, these are some details you need to consider before you buy parts and modify your sterile Sub:
First, we need to enumerate the more obvious details (the ones that can easily be seen if the watch is on your hand) of a sterile TC 16610 sub:
• No lug holes on the case.
• No rehaut engravings.
• No Laser Etched Crown (LEC).
• No Anti-Reflection (AR) on the Cyclop.
With these features, there are two initial options one can choose:
1. Y series gen – the Y series was a transitional period for the 16610 from 2002 to even early 2004. During these times, the sub transitioned from one with lug holes to no lug holes. Because of this, you will see gen Y series subs with lug holes and some without. This series possess all of the above features of the sterile TC. As such, you can date your TC during this series.
Gen Y series no lug holes
An additional quality of the Y series that correspond to the TC is the bezel teeth. Compared to other series gens, the Y series did have shallow bezel teeth similar to the P series of 2000. This seems exclusive to the Y series without lugholes as a number of those with lug holes have ‘normal’ teeth, so to speak. Other members have TC watches with better teeth construction, so this may just be a variance depending on what you received.
Gen Y series teeth
However, there is one glaring flaw with basing your TC on the Y series: during this time, the 93250 bracelet has the number marking on the back of the first link after the endlink.
Gen Y series bracelet with 93250
Solution? Very difficult as even if you can find a rep bracelet with the 93250 marking (I did), it is virtually tricky to use it with the current perfect V3/V4 TC SEL. Besides, their production quality would not have been the same.
2. D series gen – the D series gen came predominantly in 2005. This series likewise possess the above TC features except for the none LEC. It was also originally issued without the 93250 marking on the bracelet so your sterile TC is period-correct on this era too.
Gen D series bracelet without 93250
Solution? Find a crystal, rep or gen, with LEC and your are now basically in the D series. No need for the AR as this came much later in the 16610.
Gen D series no AR
However, if you received the TC with shallow bezel teeth (How to know? you can clearly check it trust me), you will not be correct for this period as this had deeper teeth cavity. Your solution? Find a Clark or Sean bezel teeth assembly and replace it. With those replaced, you are now nearer the D series sub.
TC and Clark bezel teeth comparison.
Further Questions and Mods. Find below some clarifications:
What if I want to replace the insert into a gen with flat 4?
- This still falls under the Y series gen.
Gen Y series with lug holes and flat 4
What if I want to replace the crystal into a gen with AR on the cyclop?
- The first AR cyclops on subs appeared on the last M series release leading to the V series. Both periods have rehaut engravings, so your TC will not be unserviced period-correct.
What if I want to replace the crystal into a gen without AR?
- Please see above no. 2.
What about the clasp code with PJ4 or PJ10?
- These date them to April 2008 and October 2008, respectively, under the gen V series. These are actually the last of the 16610 as it has been replaced by the 116610 with G and random serials during those times. If you plan to date your sterile TC to the Y series, it is not unusual to have a 10-year old watch (2003-2013) to have the bracelet, particularly the clasp, replaced.
What if I just get the TC with rehaut engravings?
- Yes you can but its engraving font and hue is incorrect, right smack on the face of your watch.
What about the box? Which one is correct?
- If you will base it to the Y series, get the old box with a 64.00.01 reference. If you will base your TC on the D series, get the new box.
Gen Y series box
Between the Y series and D series is the 2004 F series. Why not just based it on that?
- The F series is the same in most respect to the no lugholes Y series, except for one: better teeth cavity. If you will base it on the F series, you are adding another tell.
So if it’s harder to find a quality bracelet with a 93250 engraving to link the V3/V4 SEL, why not focus on the D series instead?
- Correct. But you need to do the following:
1) Find a crystal with LEC.
2) Find a bezel assembly with better teeth as the TC teeth compared to the gen is different.
Gen D series and TC teeth comparison c/o RG.
Do LVs follow the same principle?
- Except for the obvious insert, dial, and hands, 16610LV are identical with 16610. They generally follow the same series changes.
Gen 16610LV Y series with shallow teeth.
Gen 16610LV F series without LEC and better teeth.
Gen 16610LV M series with new box.
Is it true that the rehaut is deeper in gens than reps?
- Yes, particularly on gens with no engraved rehaut. The rehaut is a bit deeper in the number of pre-owned gen 16610 versions I’ve handled. But they are only noticeable during gen GTGs where WM9s are side by side with gens without rehaut engravings. It is not evident if you hand your rep to someone without a ready comparison. Therefore, it is minimal in my priority of tells.
Why care for all of these details? Who cares?
- If this is one’s reasoning, I would suggest that you just buy the cheap Noobmariner and not buy a TC that will start you at $500+. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, I would even suggest that you just buy a far cheaper Sub homage. Not a good or bad thing but, clearly, you are not in the TC/WM9/BK niche target market to begin with. Kindly note that submariners are the most scrutinized and copied watch in all pre-owned market across all brands. It’s either you’re in this with all the details or simply not.
So what do you suggest? What’s the ideal next move?
- It depends on what makes you content, really. One thing constant with reps is that there will always be flaws. Taking into consideration that one can buy a gen insert and a gen crystal, we can eliminate those parts in the wish list equation. The ways to move forward would be for TC to focus on which gen series to follow:
a. If Y series, the 93250 bracelet marking and clasp code are essentials to replicate.
b. If D series, the clasp code is essential. Why? Because year 2005 (D) is very near 2008 (V). In gen circles, it is weird (but not technically improbable, of course) to upgrade your bracelet with the same bracelet in just 3 years (from MA to PJ code). The bezel teeth upgrade is likewise essential.
c. If V series, the rehaut engraving is essential to be improved upon. In fact, if he will improve on this alone, I will be one happy camper. The bezel assembly is next priority.
Given the above, everyone is free to conclude what path they want to go for. But we still need TC to help us achieve any of the above improvements. We’re not even into movements yet.
As for the current me...
Hope this further helps.
Sterile TC sub c/o Emdeevee
Let me again just mention some basics:
• Mix and matching gen Rolex parts from different periods is a norm. You will see a T series (1997) with incorrect Swiss Made dial from 2002. You will see a W series (1994) fitted with a new ARed crystal. It all depends on the owner and what upgrades he wants done on his own gen watch.
• Rolex does not officially announce minor changes so there are no hard and fast rules. However, info sharing among owners and aficionados abound not only online but also through GTGs that give us information on such transitional changes.
• This is not about the quality of rep versions as it’s not the topic at hand.
But if one wants to be period-correct, these are some details you need to consider before you buy parts and modify your sterile Sub:
First, we need to enumerate the more obvious details (the ones that can easily be seen if the watch is on your hand) of a sterile TC 16610 sub:
• No lug holes on the case.
• No rehaut engravings.
• No Laser Etched Crown (LEC).
• No Anti-Reflection (AR) on the Cyclop.
With these features, there are two initial options one can choose:
1. Y series gen – the Y series was a transitional period for the 16610 from 2002 to even early 2004. During these times, the sub transitioned from one with lug holes to no lug holes. Because of this, you will see gen Y series subs with lug holes and some without. This series possess all of the above features of the sterile TC. As such, you can date your TC during this series.
Gen Y series no lug holes
An additional quality of the Y series that correspond to the TC is the bezel teeth. Compared to other series gens, the Y series did have shallow bezel teeth similar to the P series of 2000. This seems exclusive to the Y series without lugholes as a number of those with lug holes have ‘normal’ teeth, so to speak. Other members have TC watches with better teeth construction, so this may just be a variance depending on what you received.
Gen Y series teeth
However, there is one glaring flaw with basing your TC on the Y series: during this time, the 93250 bracelet has the number marking on the back of the first link after the endlink.
Gen Y series bracelet with 93250
Solution? Very difficult as even if you can find a rep bracelet with the 93250 marking (I did), it is virtually tricky to use it with the current perfect V3/V4 TC SEL. Besides, their production quality would not have been the same.
2. D series gen – the D series gen came predominantly in 2005. This series likewise possess the above TC features except for the none LEC. It was also originally issued without the 93250 marking on the bracelet so your sterile TC is period-correct on this era too.
Gen D series bracelet without 93250
Solution? Find a crystal, rep or gen, with LEC and your are now basically in the D series. No need for the AR as this came much later in the 16610.
Gen D series no AR
However, if you received the TC with shallow bezel teeth (How to know? you can clearly check it trust me), you will not be correct for this period as this had deeper teeth cavity. Your solution? Find a Clark or Sean bezel teeth assembly and replace it. With those replaced, you are now nearer the D series sub.
TC and Clark bezel teeth comparison.
Further Questions and Mods. Find below some clarifications:
What if I want to replace the insert into a gen with flat 4?
- This still falls under the Y series gen.
Gen Y series with lug holes and flat 4
What if I want to replace the crystal into a gen with AR on the cyclop?
- The first AR cyclops on subs appeared on the last M series release leading to the V series. Both periods have rehaut engravings, so your TC will not be unserviced period-correct.
What if I want to replace the crystal into a gen without AR?
- Please see above no. 2.
What about the clasp code with PJ4 or PJ10?
- These date them to April 2008 and October 2008, respectively, under the gen V series. These are actually the last of the 16610 as it has been replaced by the 116610 with G and random serials during those times. If you plan to date your sterile TC to the Y series, it is not unusual to have a 10-year old watch (2003-2013) to have the bracelet, particularly the clasp, replaced.
What if I just get the TC with rehaut engravings?
- Yes you can but its engraving font and hue is incorrect, right smack on the face of your watch.
What about the box? Which one is correct?
- If you will base it to the Y series, get the old box with a 64.00.01 reference. If you will base your TC on the D series, get the new box.
Gen Y series box
Between the Y series and D series is the 2004 F series. Why not just based it on that?
- The F series is the same in most respect to the no lugholes Y series, except for one: better teeth cavity. If you will base it on the F series, you are adding another tell.
So if it’s harder to find a quality bracelet with a 93250 engraving to link the V3/V4 SEL, why not focus on the D series instead?
- Correct. But you need to do the following:
1) Find a crystal with LEC.
2) Find a bezel assembly with better teeth as the TC teeth compared to the gen is different.
Gen D series and TC teeth comparison c/o RG.
Do LVs follow the same principle?
- Except for the obvious insert, dial, and hands, 16610LV are identical with 16610. They generally follow the same series changes.
Gen 16610LV Y series with shallow teeth.
Gen 16610LV F series without LEC and better teeth.
Gen 16610LV M series with new box.
Is it true that the rehaut is deeper in gens than reps?
- Yes, particularly on gens with no engraved rehaut. The rehaut is a bit deeper in the number of pre-owned gen 16610 versions I’ve handled. But they are only noticeable during gen GTGs where WM9s are side by side with gens without rehaut engravings. It is not evident if you hand your rep to someone without a ready comparison. Therefore, it is minimal in my priority of tells.
Why care for all of these details? Who cares?
- If this is one’s reasoning, I would suggest that you just buy the cheap Noobmariner and not buy a TC that will start you at $500+. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, I would even suggest that you just buy a far cheaper Sub homage. Not a good or bad thing but, clearly, you are not in the TC/WM9/BK niche target market to begin with. Kindly note that submariners are the most scrutinized and copied watch in all pre-owned market across all brands. It’s either you’re in this with all the details or simply not.
So what do you suggest? What’s the ideal next move?
- It depends on what makes you content, really. One thing constant with reps is that there will always be flaws. Taking into consideration that one can buy a gen insert and a gen crystal, we can eliminate those parts in the wish list equation. The ways to move forward would be for TC to focus on which gen series to follow:
a. If Y series, the 93250 bracelet marking and clasp code are essentials to replicate.
b. If D series, the clasp code is essential. Why? Because year 2005 (D) is very near 2008 (V). In gen circles, it is weird (but not technically improbable, of course) to upgrade your bracelet with the same bracelet in just 3 years (from MA to PJ code). The bezel teeth upgrade is likewise essential.
c. If V series, the rehaut engraving is essential to be improved upon. In fact, if he will improve on this alone, I will be one happy camper. The bezel assembly is next priority.
Given the above, everyone is free to conclude what path they want to go for. But we still need TC to help us achieve any of the above improvements. We’re not even into movements yet.
As for the current me...
Hope this further helps.
