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VSF Submariner VS3235 Gen Parts Installation Project

dogwood

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In an effort to expand my watch "smith" skills, I decided it would be a fun project to order some gen parts for my VS3235 movement and see if I could install them without hurting myself (other than my wallet), and see if the movement was any better off for the trouble. The parts I decided to swap for gen were:
  1. Crown Wheel (part no. 3235-213)
  2. Balance Bridge (part no. 3235-120)
  3. Balance Complete (part no. 3235-432)
My reasons for doing these three parts specifically were that I'd read in Logixa amazing teardown thread that the crown wheel on the VS3235 could have some issue due to the spring washer rubbing and producing metal shavings that would damage the movement long term. As for the balance complete and the balance bridge; those I decided to swap to gen because I wanted to see how well I could regulate the movement using the microstella nuts as opposed to using the regulation arm on the stock VS3235.

So, here's a pic of the gen parts.


And just to get a baseline of the movement's health, here's what it looks like on the timegrapher *before* I've installed any of the new gen parts.


If you were a normal person, you'd look at that timegrapher result, and say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"... fortunately, in this community we are not normal. And that's how I began to disassemble a perfectly good watch to install expensive genuine parts into a watch that clearly didn't need them to function. Onwards!

After taking the movement out of the case and removing the automatic mechanism, balance, and main train bridge, I was able to access the bit of the watch that I was planning on replacing. First up was the escape wheel. The gen version is beautifully skeletonized. Here's a pic of the Gen and VS versions under my digital microscope. There's a real difference in the finish quality (and maybe a difference in geometry -- more on this in a minute).


The crown wheel is also accessible from under the main train bridge. The difference here between the gen and the VS parts is more subtle. It's basically impossible to tell the two parts from one another without the aid of magnification. But under magnification, it's possible to see that the gen part has a much nicer finish.


The install of the crown wheel was very straight forward. I simply dropped it into place and was done. It was the same story for the escape wheel. I took out the old one, and put in the new one, re-assembled the train of wheels and then re-installed the train bridge. The train bridge went into place without any trouble and I screwed everything back down. Although when I got the pallet fork re-installed it didn't seem like the VS pallet fork and the gen escape wheel were playing that nicely with eachother. I put a little wind onto the main spring to see if I could manually actuate the pallet fork, but it looks like the VS pallet fork isn't quite right for locking and unlocking the gen escape wheel. For those who've done something like this before, did you need to replace both the escape wheel AND the pallet fork with a Gen in order for it to work?

Next was the balance and balance bridge. I'd read that sometimes that balance bridge won't quite sit properly on the VS mainplate's centering pins, and that sometimes you need to broach the holes on the gen bridge. I tried without broaching, and while *slightly* tighter than the stock balance bridge, the gen bridge fit without the need for any broaching.


With the knowledge that the balance bridge would fit onto the main plate, I decided I'd try to connect my balance complete with the balance bridge. This was really hard. Is there a tool or jig that would make this easier? I was using two pairs of tweezers; one to hold the bridge, and one to grab the little anchor thingy on the end of the hairspring, then I'd try to move the hairspring anchor thingy into the slot on the balance bridge's hairspring stud. I managed to do this once, but then I needed to somehow change tools to get a screwdriver to tighten the hairspring stud screw. While I was doing so, the anchor thingy came out of the stud slot. My arms were getting a bit tired at this point so I called it a day. If anybody has any suggestions on how to make this process a bit easier I'd love to hear.

And finally, a pic comparing the gen balance bridge with the VS balance bridge + balance complete. There really is a difference in finish quality at high magnification.
 

Yogibear

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How do you think VSF did overall on their vs3235 finishing.
 

dogwood

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How do you think VSF did overall on their vs3235 finishing.

In general, very good. But I also don't have a lot to compare it to. Obviously the VSF parts aren't as nicely finished as the gen parts. But the VSF movement costs a fraction of what I spent on three gen parts. But to my naked eye (or even with +2 reading glasses), I can't see much difference. It was only when I put the balance bridges under the digital scope that the difference really popped out at me. I have a spare VR3235, so by way of comparison here is a view of the bottom side of the balance bridge for the VS3235, VR3235, and Gen 3235. To my eye, the VS3235 part looks more nicely finished than the VR3235 part; and both are obviously distant second and third to the Gen part.
 

Yogibear

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Yea that falls in line with what I was told about VR not being the best quality and even something as simple as screws being terrible on the VRs. People seem to be impressed with the VS though. probably good to stock up on some vs3135 lol.
 
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newonboard

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I've always wondered why there are two "these stabilizers" on the bridge in rep and only 1 in gen. So now, it's hard to tell the rep mechanism from the gen with the naked eye?
 

SS72

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Awesome work dogwood.

You must have very steady hands!

That gen escape wheel is a piece of art.
 
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WatchSmith.US

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Set the balance wheel in place in the movement, then place the bridge over it being sure the pivots are in their jewels and tighten it down. Then place the hairspring bridle into the balance’s arm. It has to be lifted slightly then it will drop readily into place. Tighten the hairspring screw.

I think it was KJ2020 who discovered that a gen pallet fork and gen escape wheel had to be installed together in his 3235.
I have one running gen pallet fork and escape wheel perfectly in one movement but they would not work in another vs3235.

Message me if you need a microstella tool. I have an extra one I can part with.
 

dogwood

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Set the balance wheel in place in the movement, then place the bridge over it being sure the pivots are in their jewels and tighten it down. Then place the hairspring bridle into the balance’s arm. It has to be lifted slightly then it will drop readily into place. Tighten the hairspring screw.

I think it was KJ2020 who discovered that a gen pallet fork and gen escape wheel had to be installed together in his 3235.
I have one running gen pallet fork and escape wheel perfectly in one movement but they would not work in another vs3235.

Message me if you need a microstella tool. I have an extra one I can part with.

Thanks for the tip about using the movement mail plate as the jig to hold the balance bridge and balance complete in position to attach the bridle to the hairspring stud — it was trivially easy when I tried it using your method!



Further Update: I removed the gen escape wheel for now since it won’t work with the VSF pallet fork. I have a gen pallet fork on order, so that install will be a future project.

But with the VS escape wheel and pallet fork back in the movement, I re-installed the assembled balance and to my joy the movement started swinging! I put it on my time graphed to see how healthy it was and it doesn’t look bad. Amplitude is a little lower than before. And the best error was initially huge. But it was easy to adjust out the beat error. And now it’s just a case of regulating.

regulating is going to be a whole new adventure since I’ve never adjusted a movement using microstella nuts. Thanks Triplock for the offer of the microstella wrench. I’ve already ordered one from Perrin which should be delivered today. If I messed up and ordered the wrong one, I’ll be sure to hit your DMs though.
 

dogwood

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I've always wondered why there are two "these stabilizers" on the bridge in rep and only 1 in gen. So now, it's hard to tell the rep mechanism from the gen with the naked eye?

The idea is that the movement will be more stable to knocks and bumps. The VS regulation arm can move if the watch gets knocked, whereas the microstella nuts won’t move if the movement is bumped.
 
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WatchSmith.US

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The idea is that the movement will be more stable to knocks and bumps. The VS regulation arm can move if the watch gets knocked, whereas the microstella nuts won’t move if the movement is bumped.

I’m not the only one who’s has found vs3235 balances unstable and easy to get so far out of regulation that it’s next to impossible to bring them back to spec. A gen balance is an excellent upgrade for these movements.
 

AG91

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Could the escape wheel with its fork improve the width? congratulations for the post and its details, keep us updated! PS: is the vs3235 much louder than the vs3135?
 

dogwood

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Could the escape wheel with its fork improve the width? congratulations for the post and its details, keep us updated! PS: is the vs3235 much louder than the vs3135?

I'm not sure what you mean about "improve the width"? Do you mean amplitude? Or do you mean power reserve?

I can't speak to how loud the vs3235 is compared to the vs3135 since I down own a vs3135. However, both are extremely quiet compared to other movements, e.g. the Asian manual wind tourbillon movement.
 
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KJ2020

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The escape wheel and the pallet were changed in the 3235 to use less energy and aid in increasing PR. But the VS3235 rep achieves ~70 hr PR without a skeleton escape wheel or thinner pallet stones so installing them doesn't really provide any really measurable improvement to the rep movement IME. I installed a gen escape wheel because one of the pivots broke and then discovered it was not compatible with the rep pallet fork. So both parts need to be gen for them to work.

https://quillandpad.com/2019/11/19/...x-calibers-3135-and-3235-and-which-is-better/
 

dogwood

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The escape wheel and the pallet were changed in the 3235 to use less energy and aid in increasing PR. But the VS3235 rep achieves ~70 hr PR without a skeleton escape wheel or thinner pallet stones so installing them doesn't really provide any really measurable improvement to the rep movement IME. I installed a gen escape wheel because one of the pivots broke and then discovered it was not compatible with the rep pallet fork. So both parts need to be gen for them to work.

https://quillandpad.com/2019/11/19/...x-calibers-3135-and-3235-and-which-is-better/

Thanks for the heads up on the differences between the gen and VS3235 escapement. If anything this makes me even more impressed with VSF for the fact they were able to get a 70 hour power reserve without resorting to the fancy skeletonized escapewheel and thinner pallet stones. Regardless, I wanted the cool looking (even though I'll never see it, but I'll know it's there) escape wheel... so that means I need the gen pallet fork too. It's on order. It should arrive in a week.

I was working on installing gen parts in my noob 4130 today, and ran into a different kind of issue, documented here. Fun times.
 
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AG91

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I have read the whole article, it is very interesting! In my ignorance I thought it could increase the amplitude it lacked, not that it would improve the power reserve. But obviously I'm not of the trade and I thought badly!
 

AG91

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I have read the whole article, it is very interesting! In my ignorance I thought it could increase the amplitude it lacked, not that it would improve the power reserve. But obviously I'm not of the trade and I thought badly!
 

WatchSmith.US

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Thanks for the heads up on the differences between the gen and VS3235 escapement. If anything this makes me even more impressed with VSF for the fact they were able to get a 70 hour power reserve without resorting to the fancy skeletonized escapewheel and thinner pallet stones. Regardless, I wanted the cool looking (even though I'll never see it, but I'll know it's there) escape wheel... so that means I need the gen pallet fork too. It's on order. It should arrive in a week.

I was working on installing gen parts in my noob 4130 today, and ran into a different kind of issue, documented here. Fun times.

I put the gen pallet fork and escape wheel in mine, not because it needed it, but because I just wanted to. The rep ones work perfectly fine.
 
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dogwood

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UPDATE: After working on my Noob 4130 for a few days and getting stuck on a KIF shock setting, I figured it was a good time to pick up the VS3235 project again. As luck would have it, my gen pallet fork got delivered this morning, so I had all the parts I needed to get going again. Here's a close up pic of the gen pallet fork compared to the one that came stock in the VS movement. There is very clearly a difference in geometry and also in finish quality.


Getting everything installed as pretty straight forward although it did take me a bit of time to get the pallet fork to align in the main plate pivot, but that's probably due to fat clumsy fingers more than a problem with part compatibility. Nonetheless, I got everything installed, applied a tiny amount of Moebius 9415 to on of the pallet stones, and then re-installed the gen balance.


I have to admit that it looks beautiful with the skeletonized escape wheel, thin pallet stones, and single arm on the balance. Not that the VS movement isn't a work of art, but the gen parts are just on another level.

Next was regulating. The beat error was easy to adjust to zero, and after a few false starts I was able to get the hang of the microstella nut tool. I'm not sure if I'm doing this correctly, but my method is to use the balance hack function from the crown to stop the balance wheel, and then to use the microstella nut tool on pairs of nuts with the balance in the movement but stopped due to the balance hack. I was a little worried that doing it this way would put stress on the balance staff pivots. Is there a safer way to do this, or is the technique to simply be careful not to apply too much force to the balance wheel when doing adjustments?

Here is the timegrapher result. For some reason my amplitude is down a bit. I'm not really sure where that is coming from. Maybe I need to adjust the end-shake of the balance?


As always, thanks for coming along for the ride. I hope these types of post are helpful.
 

dogwood

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Success. Got the movement back into the case without too much trouble getting the dial and hands back on. I was trying to use a blower to get rid of the tiny dust particles on the dial (visible only on my microscope) prior to putting the hands back on, and the blower wasn’t really doing the job. But I tried a small artists paintbrush and it worked like a charm. Not sure if that’s a common technique, but I’m glad I found it since my ocd about dust on the dial was gonna be a problem. Also, interestingly, when I checked the watch on the time grapher after re-casing the movement, the amplitude increased but the regulation got worse. Maybe I knocked something during the process?