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Franken/ gen feel

TonyBevilsizer

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At what point do you feel as though your franken/super franken feels like genuine to you. I only ask because I have a 5513 that I built from the ground up with all gen parts excluding mid case and crown. In my mind it’s a gen as you can get without a proper serial midcase. I have a gen crown but haven’t installed it yet, and really don’t care to. But when I wear it I feel as though I’m wearing a genuine 5513.


Is that just me? I mean movement, dial. Hands, bracelet and crystal all gen. 95% is gen. But at the same time deep in my head I’m still longing for a complete genuine 5513. Maybe because morally I can’t sell it as gen if needed for emergency. But otherwise I feel that it is. What’s yalls thoughts? Where’s your line in the sand when you feel your watch feels gen to you? Parts wise....?
 
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johloo

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I've been frankening a bunch of my watches and share very similar sentiment with you that even with 95% gen parts, if the case or movement isn't gen, then it's still a rep in the end of the day and doesn't fill that longing of the gen that it's supposed to be. I've had all gen except movement, and with a clone movement, they certainly feel gen and no visual or hands on inspection except opening can ever tell that it isn't a full gen. While all gen externally and no one could ever say otherwise, I am fully aware it's not a full gen when wearing it. These superfrankens are built from individually sourced parts so it feels like a super rep since that was the intention of watch in the beginning of its conception, the heart of the watch is still a rep. Conversely, for me, if it were a complete gen that had a crapped out movement that got replaced with a clone, then it would feel less of a rep but more like a severely bastardized gen waiting on a movement replacement.

With the movement being the heart of the watch, I think if you have a gen movement in a rep case with everything else gen, it would feel less of a rep but once again more like a bastardized rep. With rep cases though, since it is such a main part of the watch that can be seen and felt, having this part be a rep can be a big tell. Any immediate giveaways always detracts from the gen-feelingness of the watch.

Still, if say the watch was all gen to begin with and the case got totally irreparably wrecked and you replaced with a high end rep case, then you'd still have a rep since such a key external part of the watch is a rep.

For me, despite how good a rep is or how many external gen parts are used, unless the case, movement, dial, and bracelet are gen, then the watch is going to be some sort of rep. Having gen dial, case / movement and a few aftermarket parts makes it a gen-stein which in my book is a step up from any superfranken that has either rep case or movement. You'd also be able to sell such a gen-stein much easier on the gray market, of course, given that buyer is aware of the use of smaller aftermarket parts.

Alternatively, to me, if you had a full gen and swapped the just dial out for aftermarket, you still have an overall gen watch but in a very sad state with a bad dial.

In the end, once again, since the case and movements are the heart and soul of the watch, if either of these are reps, then the watch is a rep. Of course, if we're going my Rolex's standard, you can change just a spring bar or swap an original part that wasn't factory configuration and they would condemn the entire watch as counterfeit.

This all made sense in my head but not sure it does to you. Of course, these are also just personal views on reps vs gens, surely others have different opinions on this.
 
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johloo

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Also wanted to add as an example, I had an all gen datejust that served as my first experiment watch. Parts got in bad shape here there so I began replacing with other gen parts also for this same model of datejust (so nothing installed that wasn't originally made for this exact model).

I first swapped the dial and hands with other gen parts, then the bezel with another gen, the case back, then crown, then ultimately the entire case. All said and done, the only thing that it still has from its original configuration is the movement, datewheel, and stem. The crystal is and one of the internal movement screws are aftermarket replacements.
With the aftermarket crystal + screw and shuffling of parts, Rolex might consider it a counterfeit. Others might consider it a genstein / gen. To me, as long as the original movement is there and beating with all gen parts, its a gen that slowly underwent a series of parts replacement.
 
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micksmith1987

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Honestly, to me it seems that a gen movement (or everything gen except case) is an overkill. Probably I would prefer rep clone movement and a gen clasp.

I like your question: when does it feel gen? This is my only question when I get a rolex or omega rep - does it feel like my gens? (no necessarily the same model). And frankly, I very often complain about crowns, clasps and bezel action. Dials and hands are these days at a really high level (of course, with some exceptions).
 

p0pperini

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But at the same time deep in my head I’m still longing for a complete genuine 5513. Maybe because morally I can’t sell it as gen if needed for emergency.
It sounds to me like this may go to the root of explaining your dilemma.

I’m happy when a watch has enough genuine parts to make it visually indistinguishable from a gen, unless the person viewing it has a Masters Degree in Watch Forensics from the University of RWI. For me that means gen dial, hands, DW, crystal, insert, crown. The standard Franken kit. If I’m looking at these gen parts, my aesthetic sense of the watch is completely satisfied - and that’s all I want. It equates to something as close to gen as it needs to be.
 

TonyBevilsizer

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Also wanted to add as an example, I had an all gen datejust that served as my first experiment watch. Parts got in bad shape here there so I began replacing with other gen parts also for this same model of datejust (so nothing installed that wasn't originally made for this exact model).

I first swapped the dial and hands with other gen parts, then the bezel with another gen, the case back, then crown, then ultimately the entire crown. All said and done, the only thing that it still has from its original configuration is the movement, datewheel, and stem. The crystal is and one of the internal movement screws are aftermarket replacements.

With the aftermarket crystal + screw and shuffling of parts, Rolex might consider it a counterfeit. Others might consider it a genstein / gen. To me, as long as the original movement is there and beating with all gen parts, its a gen that slowly underwent a series of parts replacement.

For me it’s the movement as well. It’s the most important part of the watch. Then I build upon visual parts. Typically I don’t do a franken build unless I can get my hands on a genuine movement. It’s not worth it to me.
 

TonyBevilsizer

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It sounds to me like this may go to the root of explaining your dilemma.

I’m happy when a watch has enough genuine parts to make it visually indistinguishable from a gen, unless the person viewing it has a Masters Degree in Watch Forensics from the University of RWI. For me that means gen dial, hands, DW, crystal, insert, crown. The standard Franken kit. If I’m looking at these gen parts, my aesthetic sense of the watch is completely satisfied - and that’s all I want. It equates to something as close to gen as it needs to be.

I think you’re right. I’ve sold nearly all my genuine watches for other hobbies/ requirement in life. And had zero trouble. I’ve sold a watch to buy a boat. Then had kids and sold the boat and poured a patio. I think it’s just the ability to flip something of high value is much easier with genuine. And that is why I long for full gen. The flexibility of flipping. I’m fully aware that I can sell hvs here but you have to be extra cautious. I typically don’t even sell run of the mill reps to people who haven’t sold themselves on this forum.
 

p0pperini

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I think you’re right. I’ve sold nearly all my genuine watches for other hobbies/ requirement in life. And had zero trouble. I’ve sold a watch to buy a boat. Then had kids and sold the boat and poured a patio. I think it’s just the ability to flip something of high value is much easier with genuine. And that is why I long for full gen. The flexibility of flipping. I’m fully aware that I can sell hvs here but you have to be extra cautious. I typically don’t even sell run of the mill reps to people who haven’t sold themselves on this forum.

I see what you mean. Although I don't have similar gen watch related tales to tell. The only things I've sold to quickly generate cash are cars, and sadly I've lost a small fortune doing so, having never bought or sold at the right time for a car to be an investment.

I feel fortunate that the level of Franken I'm happy with doesn't cost many thousands. However, that doesn't stop me having the occasional wobble when I think of the total value of all my Frankens, and also the sheer number of rep watches that I've accumulated. I look at the total cost on the spreadsheet I keep, and it makes me a bit queasy. But even if I sold the lot of them, they still wouldn't pay for a decent boat.
 

TonyBevilsizer

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But even if I sold the lot of them, they still wouldn't pay for a decent boat.

Lol small boat in south texas for duck hunting. Picture something Adam Sandler would have in the movie “the water boy”
 

p0pperini

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Lol small boat in south texas for duck hunting. Picture something Adam Sandler would have in the movie “the water boy”

Ah, right! Maybe not the gin palace I was thinking of then. I've never seen an Adam Sandler film, but I'm picturing something along the lines of those flat bottomed Everglades swamp boats with a massive fan at the rear (the one we went on was powered by a Chevy big block)...
 
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TonyBevilsizer

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Not quite. Those are expensive. Lol. Just a little John boat. Got the job done, but babies can’t duck hunt. It never got used.
 

Vicar69

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It probably sounds a bit simplistic- but if it’s not Gen, it’s a Rep.
I’ve had a few amazing Frankensteins built in the last couple of years (I’m currently selling one on the forum - and a genstein Batman to follow...)
But ultimately - I always craved the gen no matter how good the rep was.
My absolute nightmare would be these forums getting shut down so I couldn’t pass on these amazing builds as I have the good luck to move on to the gen versions. Soooo much time and money sunk into every build.
For me, I think building a Franken helps me appreciate the gen even more - and when I manage by good fortune to acquire the gen, I enjoy it all the more.
(Till I sell it) ;)


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hanski

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I think the heart of your question goes to your own comfort level with the watch you’re wearing. Not whether it feels like gen but rather are you satisfied with the watch.
One person may wear a stock rep, OOTB, and feel like it’s basically gen. They’ll happily wear with pride and confidence.
Another collector may own an all original gen with a service insert and feel unsatisfied because it’s not all original.
Point being, where do you land in the spectrum of comfort with your watch? What really makes you feel uncomfortable?
Regarding a quick sale of any watch, I think there’s always a venue to cash out, rep, gen, franken, or otherwise.
 

mech500

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My absolute nightmare would be these forums getting shut down so I couldn’t pass on these amazing builds as I have the good luck to move on to the gen versions.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hear ya but think of it this way; The gen parts in your Franken will hold their value. A franken could be seen as a gen parts storage facility.

For me, It’s a cycle: you buy reps, something bothers you, so you franken. But frankens won’t cut it until you buy gen. once you’ve had the gen, the level of rep paranoia goes down and find that you don’t wanna walk around with £15k strapped to the wrist.....it just isn’t as fun as wearing a rep....so you go back to reps. This time stock VSF with gen xtal is good enough and you won’t contemplate putting £4K into a franken.





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Kernow

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I have an all genstien Seamaster Pro, built up of collected gen parts: gen case, case back, crystal, bezel, insert, bracelet, crown, HeV etc. The movement is gen ETA too, but whilst it’s all Omega, it doesn’t feel as special as if it had left the Omega factory this was rather than me having it built. I still love it though.
 

Vicar69

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I hear ya but think of it this way; The gen parts in your Franken will hold their value. A franken could be seen as a gen parts storage facility.

For me, It’s a cycle: you buy reps, something bothers you, so you franken. But frankens won’t cut it until you buy gen. once you’ve had the gen, the level of rep paranoia goes down and find that you don’t wanna walk around with £15k strapped to the wrist.....it just isn’t as fun as wearing a rep....so you go back to reps. This time stock VSF with gen xtal is good enough and you won’t contemplate putting £4K into a franken.





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You’ve totally nailed it!


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CarpetRyd

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I have an all gen 16610 MAXI (116610 dial/handset) with an ST midcase and gen 16710 caseback. I’m completely content with this build and love wearing it everyday. Gen watch market is nuts now. Knowing what I know, I wouldn’t enjoy a GEN any more than I enjoy my current watch. I’ll keep this guy ticking for as long as it’s possible - gen or not...
 

JohnnyBe

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For me a franken is a franken...I ve had few watches modded to the point of OCD,still i was always proud wearing them,but i always knew that it wasnt gen,and it cant be.
Gen is gen and for some of us ,the joy of owning a gen is important,the process of having a good AD,walking into and knowing that you re investing in a timepiece.
Other than that ,i enjoy wearing my gens,reps,frankens the same. At the end of the day it is just personal preferences.
 

sfgerl

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I hear ya but think of it this way; The gen parts in your Franken will hold their value. A franken could be seen as a gen parts storage facility.

For me, It’s a cycle: you buy reps, something bothers you, so you franken. But frankens won’t cut it until you buy gen. once you’ve had the gen, the level of rep paranoia goes down and find that you don’t wanna walk around with £15k strapped to the wrist.....it just isn’t as fun as wearing a rep....so you go back to reps. This time stock VSF with gen xtal is good enough and you won’t contemplate putting £4K into a franken.


I agree. I am one of the few who spend $$$ building a high end franken/gensteins: all gen but the dial and case (116600LV), all gen but the case matte dial 16800, and all gen but the case Meters First 5513.

For me, although they are reps, I am plenty content when wearing them, and have no inclination to spend 3 times what the builds cost me to have a gen. Heck, with vintage watches, how does one ever really know for sure that the seller/s did not replace the hands, the insert, the dial, or the crown, etc.? True, I can't and won't sell them as gen. Worst case scenario, I break them down and sell off the gen parts. They are not investments to me, they are reps that are very, very close to gen, close enough to make me proud to wear them and not get called out, and also not live in fear of wearing a 10 - 15K timepiece around every day!
 
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