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Why I wont buy 3135VR clone or 904L versions

muiramas

Erect Aristocrat
18/1/17
5,730
7,100
113
in my case, it is a sort of insurance against my gens. I.e. I will wear the rep in public places where theft could potentially be an issue, and the gen at home or in safer environments as well as for investment purposes.

So, this brings me to my question, why do we need cloned movements, boxes, papers, warranty cards for rep watches? Are we trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes? Surely we are not buying these watches to try and pass off as gens on a potential dodgy sale?.

I'm not sure having an expensive watch in a safe is of any relevance. A replica is a simulacrum. Wearing one makes you the moral equal to everyone else wearing one.

Re: movement, there's something nice about knowing that whats on the inside is replicated as well. Especially with the new 3235 and its extended power reserve. Different stokes... No sense in thinking a 1 size fits all approach can be applied to what is essentially a hobby.

I agree that boxes and warranty cards are kind of goofy though.
 
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PAMorROLEX

Active Member
26/10/20
364
216
43
EU
Technically a 10 Dollar USD Digital watch is more accurate than the most expensive mechanical movement.. It all boils down to what you want to own and what you enjoy the most.....

For example, I wanted to buy a Rolex Sub, it is impossible to do so at the MSRP because of too many flippers and unethical ADs out there. The cheapest ones I found was over 60% markup in the grey market.. I was able to build a Genstien with all the Gen parts (Including the movement) apart from the Bracelet and Case at a much lower cost. For me that watch is as good as a gen and I am happy to have the same.

Regarding the Steel, there is obviously no difference on the wrist in between a 316L vs 904L versions. Also the cost isn't significantly different.. Thats the same marketing technique used by the Rep manufacturers to test the Willingness to pay (WTP)... If there is a customer to buy a 5000 Euros rep, they shall be selling more expensive versions with unwanted upgrades..
 
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PAMorROLEX

Active Member
26/10/20
364
216
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EU
316L Steel,

Tensile strength: 485 MPa
Hardness: 95 (Rockwell B)

where as 904L is:
Tensile strength: 490 MPa
Hardness: 70-90 (Rockwell B)


Technically no difference on your wrist for sure.. If you place the 316L inside the seawater the for the first 25 days there isn't any corrosion happening. The only place I see the utility of 904L is underwater sea columns... Can't believe people bought into the Rolex marketing stories for quite some decades.. lol



I'm pretty sure that 316L is harder than 904L, am i wrong?
 

muiramas

Erect Aristocrat
18/1/17
5,730
7,100
113
The only place I see the utility of 904L is underwater sea columns...

There are better steel alloys for marine work than 904L.

Keeping it to horology, Sinn uses submarine steel which is far superior in every way for marine use (except 904L looks shinier and prettier)
 
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Peguine

Mac and Cheese sucks
18/3/19
1,148
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At a mcdonalds birthday party
Why dont the factories rather put in gen Swiss ETA movements into these reps and give us reliable timepieces for our 500 bucks so that we can use them as intended? Cloned 3135 and their derivatives are inherrently more difficuilt to service whereas ETA parts are more common at the watchmaker down the road..
Am Imissing something?
\

I reckon, for the factories, they know the market they are selling to are most likely people who pass off reps as gens or intend to.

In terms of the movement thing, I would kill for a clone Valjoux 72, sometimes cases and parts require specific movements to fit well. ETA, selita and other movements sometimes don't fit, and you will have to occasionally even chop off dial feet to fit in a nice/gen dial as said somewhere above.

Also, it's important to remember that everyone buys reps for different reasons. Sometimes, I reckon people would just like to know that their watch is the most accurate version of the gen :).

Some of us are fortunate enough to afford gen stuff and some people aren't. I'm all for cloned movements, its advancement in our niche hobby and helps develop crazy stuff like the 4130 clone and 324SC clone. Also, before the 4130 clone do remember that daytonas were either partially functioning chronographs or 15mm thick.
 
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bc1221

Put Some Respect On My Name
30/4/14
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This ^^^

Very good point made here.


The ETA 2824/2836 seem to consistently have keyless issues or datewheel issues in my experience.

Ive changed to VR3135 since whenever possible. They take gen DW which is a 30 second job once the dial is off and I haven’t had one keyless issue. Most of them come pre regulated and have great amplitude right out of the box. They are readily available for around $160, take gen rolex parts, dials and hands too. Which, depending on the situation, makes finding parts easier

Yep. Completely forgot about the keyless works issue. On the clone etas, you only get a certain number times (in my experience anyway) before th spring back plate isn’t that springy and will have to reset or get a gen eta plate.

Those clone 3135s are almost impossible to mess them up. Trust me. I’ve pushed on that release button as hard as I could on a dead SH and it would not pop the control lever off. So I never worry about working on one of those.

Clone ETAs on the other hand... I try to only take the movement out after I have all of the parts ready to be installed or changed before I work on it. Mainly because of the keyless works. I mean. I’m no pro so I’m sure there is a specific amount of pressure you need to put on it for it to stay as springy but I haven’t reached that level yet. I’ve had to bend it back, down, up up down down left, right left right and start..etc. lol.

So any time I buy a watch with a clone 28**, 2 mods I definitely do first. Swap out the mainspring for a gen eta one for much better amp and accuracy (great and easy mod that I highly recommend. Then I swap out the plate if I need to. Gen eta ones are much better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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tumad

Known Member
28/10/19
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So it seems to be the consensus that there are pros and cons between the two movements. ETA: Ease of service, parts and reliability. Clone: Modding and something else.
Of my 4 reps, 2 have ETA's and 2 have Cloned, but that is not by choice, only what was available at the time. We will see how long they last :) It's good to know though that should they fail, they can either be repaired (ETA) or replaced (clone) so either way, they are still fun to have, regardless of the motives
 

Complete

Renowned Member
18/10/17
637
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Yep. Completely forgot about the keyless works issue. On the clone etas, you only get a certain number times (in my experience anyway) before th spring back plate isn’t that springy and will have to reset or get a gen eta plate.

Those clone 3135s are almost impossible to mess them up. Trust me. I’ve pushed on that release button as hard as I could on a dead SH and it would not pop the control lever off. So I never worry about working on one of those.

Clone ETAs on the other hand... I try to only take the movement out after I have all of the parts ready to be installed or changed before I work on it. Mainly because of the keyless works. I mean. I’m no pro so I’m sure there is a specific amount of pressure you need to put on it for it to stay as springy but I haven’t reached that level yet. I’ve had to bend it back, down, up up down down left, right left right and start..etc. lol.

So any time I buy a watch with a clone 28**, 2 mods I definitely do first. Swap out the mainspring for a gen eta one for much better amp and accuracy (great and easy mod that I highly recommend. Then I swap out the plate if I need to. Gen eta ones are much better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What I’ve been doing is taking a torch cleaning tip for oxy acetylene torch and running that file thru the hole that you poke to release the stem. I file it until it runs smooth and I grease the pin that is on the lever that goes into that hole.

That usually fixes the keyless and keeps it from jamming up. Thanks for sharing your experience on the spring plate. I hadn’t considered that as a fix.

Then after you fix the dang keyless, next up is dealing with the dw overlay that always seems to fall of and need to be glued on and realigned!!

Be careful with the glue and dont get any into the dw cogs or she wont flip consistently.

Oh and then of course that last blasted screw that you have to try and seek under the dwo/dw without knocking the dw off track.

Ease of service on a2836? Not in my opinion. I’ll take a VR3135 any day. Everything about it feels much more substantial to me. Can’t tell you how many keyless and datewheel jobs Ive done on 2824/2836.
 

Tmills

You're Saying I Can Sell?
8/12/20
30
4
0
Las Vegas, NV
I see it as "different strokes for different folks".

Some want a reliable workhorse that can be serviced/repaired almost all watchsmiths, so they go with a 2824/2836 watch. Some want a rep watch to be as close as gen as possible, so they gen an in-house clone movement.

Myself, I wanted a Daytona that was as close to gen as possible, so I had no choice but to get a Noob daytona that is 904L and has a clone 4130. I would never wear a 7750 daytona , as they're way too thick. On the flip side, I wear a Noob submariner every day that gets beat to shit, so I settled with a A2836 in 316L.

I'll agree that the box and papers are ridiculous.
 

MolluskMan

Known Member
16/10/20
184
225
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New York, NY
I will add that for me the benefit of a cloned movement goes beyond the practical considerations of serviceability and franken potential. I derive some personal satisfaction in knowing that the watch is a complete replica, down to the inner workings. We're all in this because we have some admiration for the artistry of watchmaking and the design and engineering that goes into a mechanical watch, so having the movement that was intended to go in the case is part of the experience. Not that I don't have reps with alternate off-the-shelf movements, but there's a certain pleasure in having an in-house movement just the same as an in-house movement carries some prestige among gen brands.
 
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Burbizia

Active Member
29/8/20
300
149
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Interesting topic.

1) Box and papers. It is really hard for me to see the appeal of these items for a Replica. I would not be 100% sure to label all the people willing to have full boxes and papers scammers, as someone might simply like to replicate the feeling of fulled out purchase. To summarize: I agree with you: I find very difficult to justify the existence of these products, but people have different tastes.

2) Movements. If caseback is open and movements are fully replicated and egraved, they are great to see. Also, it is important that these movements often are able to accept genuine hands/dials/datewheel. Sometimes is also a matter of dimensions.
You don't like Frankens, but this is a huge factor.

3) Franken. Here I strongly disagree. I agree that 4-6000€ Franken Submariner are silly (since for 7500€ you can acquire a Genuine wihout B&P), but spening 300-1000€ to correct the major issue with a Replica might be something I can get behind.
For Daytonas, for example, Dials to me are quite bad. Until few months ago, GEN dials could be found well below 1000€. It changed the aspect of the Wach in a huge way.
1500-2000€ Daytona Franken are extremely close to genuine and a real pleasure to watch/wear. 3000€-4000€ (ones with gen hands and bezel) are very expensive, and I'm hesitant to consider them good deals, but they are still 5-6 times cheaper than a genuine and consider that 80% of visible watch is genuine.

4) 904 issue: here I strongly disagree. Not only a correct metal is mandatory, but I'm also hesitant to accpet as true that the 904 used on Replicas is the same as Steel from Rolex (or 316 for other brands). The truth is that Genuine always look more shiny and precious.
My gen Daytona looks almost white gold. steel is very "white".
My replicas of Audemar's RO look grey and look more like they are made of iron than steel.
Maybe it is a matter of brushing, but this is something I have rarely seen discussed here.


the reason people wear replicas is various, and impossible to agree on which is correct (since many of them might be correct since people are different). Some people are OK with 50-60% accuracy (DHGate for example), come people are ok with 90% accuracy (and like to buy OOTB replicas of major factory).
Some people might want to eliminate differences too visible and go light/heavy MOD.

It is also a matter of what model you want and how much are you ok to lower your limit of tollerance.

Speacking of me:
I'm very addicted to good dials.
I would like to have a Nautilus (and not a white one, since I already have 3 white watches)

I had to give up. Dials form all factories simply are not even close to genuine colour. If they had to make a blue dial this far from original, they could do a red/yellow one.
No one knowing what a Nautilus is could consider it similar.
Maybe PPF / PF blue are beautiful. But PatekF dial is simply different.

Genuine one goes for 5-6000€ (and I would not trust seller), but if a genuine Blue Nautilus dial costed 1000€ I would pull the trigger.
 

miscusi

Active Member
10/10/20
371
199
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NYC
Box and Papers: I myself dont care about box and papers, I rather them put that money towards better quality control. 904L: I see it this way, they GOTTA make it out of something, why not make it out of 904L, its like, say.. the 12 o clock marker on a nautlis, they gotta put it on the dial anyway, why not put it on in the correct position? I hate it when the two bars dont match up, drives me insane, like, how hard is it to just put it on so its not bent? sigh
 

centrum

Active Member
27/7/14
442
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There could be many reasons why they keep pushing for making clone movements. My theory is:

1. People want them. These people could be the mainland Chinese or foreigners.

2. The factories want to pursue the challenge of cloning movements for some reasons.

3. Clone movements bring more profits.


Hey I'm on the same boat as why risking with clone Rolex movements even the clone ETAs work just as fine. But it seems there are reliable Rolex clones out there like the Noob 4130, VSF 3135 and 3235.

I don't have any experiences with Rolex clones and am looking forward to hear peoples' feedbacks.

Sent from my SM-G977N using Tapatalk
 

iceberg1459

Renowned Member
Certified
27/3/08
805
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28
after all its just a watch. why buy a watch if you cant just wear it. and 904l makes difference. you would know if you have a gen rolex.
 

slashdotcom1

Renowned Member
16/11/18
507
131
43
I can tell you why i would buy a clone movement and 904 steel. Because i would like to have the rep as closest as possible to the gen. I also never hide my watches under the sleeve or in any other way...gen or rep. I like watches and following how the rep game evolved in the last 8 years is really cool. I could never imagine to have such amazing Daytona(for example). The price went up, but also the quality and i do not mind to pay an extra for 904L or a clone movement. Box and papers...that's a garbage.
 

rj999

I'm Pretty Popular
20/10/13
1,033
174
63
UK
The point about clone movements on the Daytona is surely that the 7750 movements need a sandwich plate and extra gears to get the seconds to the right place on the dial. The Noob clone does not...
 

guybythelake

Active Member
13/7/14
299
122
43
What I’ve been doing is taking a torch cleaning tip for oxy acetylene torch and running that file thru the hole that you poke to release the stem. I file it until it runs smooth and I grease the pin that is on the lever that goes into that hole.

That usually fixes the keyless and keeps it from jamming up. Thanks for sharing your experience on the spring plate. I hadn’t considered that as a fix.

Then after you fix the dang keyless, next up is dealing with the dw overlay that always seems to fall of and need to be glued on and realigned!!

Be careful with the glue and dont get any into the dw cogs or she wont flip consistently.

Oh and then of course that last blasted screw that you have to try and seek under the dwo/dw without knocking the dw off track.

Ease of service on a2836? Not in my opinion. I’ll take a VR3135 any day. Everything about it feels much more substantial to me. Can’t tell you how many keyless and datewheel jobs Ive done on 2824/2836.

Excellent points. Few more points here:

The swiss ETAs are not cheap, more than VR3135, VR3185, etc... and difficult to source, so think from the rep companies view point: they need swiss ETAs in thousands to make fake watches... i dont think swiss is gonna sell 10k movements to Noob and and other to ARF, VSF etc to make fake submariners... i think you get the point.

The Clone ETAs are allright, and you can just replace them for 50 bucks, you know the seaguls, and easier to DYI than taking apart movements.

The clones are about 150 and i think it is superior movement to ETA, just as a Gen Rolex movement is superior to Gen ETA IMO. Plus you can mod it. So when you breakdown the cost usually the clone versions are 50 bucks more and that is a bragain. It gives you ability to mod. If you dont wanna mod, then it is transparent to you what movement you got. But reliability or performance vise i dont think a big difference between a 2824 and 3135 clones.

If factories offered gen ETA movements it would tag an other 300 bucks or more to cost of the rep. And again if the rep companies could get these in masses.

And in some instances the clone movements like the daytona 4130, is necessary to rep the functions while keeping the external dimensions correct. Also it applies to GMT with reliability and hand stack.

The clone movements are the next step on reps, while in the beginning I wasn't sure but now i think they are great.

The paperwork is not useful to me, but at some point we all fool ourselves with reps, and the cards and boxes may help with that...