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Lost Packages

Nivenj

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If an M2M package is lost in the post, who eats the cost? Seller or Buyer?
 

Nikz19

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If an M2M package is lost in the post, who eats the cost? Seller or Buyer?

Common sense would say buyer takes the hit, seller fulfilled his duties by shipping the watch. If he used tracked post and the package gets lost anyway, it’s out of the seller’s control.

If he also has to pay, he would be out of money AND the item he shipped.. That’s not fair.
 
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Nivenj

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Common sense would say buyer takes the hit, seller fulfilled his duties by shipping the watch. If he used tracked post and the package gets lost anyway, it’s out of the seller’s control.

If he also has to pay, he would be out of money AND the item he shipped.. That’s not fair.

He would only be returning the money he was given in the transaction so he would only be out the item he shipped. So in this case is the buyer that looses out as he has lost the money with no item, and seller has the money. So either way, someone is losing out. I dont sent anything without it being insured for the value paid so if it gets lost you can claim back from the postal service.
 

Nikz19

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He would only be returning the money he was given in the transaction so he would only be out the item he shipped. So in this case is the buyer that looses out as he has lost the money with no item, and seller has the money. So either way, someone is losing out. I dont sent anything without it being insured for the value paid so if it gets lost you can claim back from the postal service.

The other way around the buyer hadn’t lost anything as he still has his money. Seller just lost his item. I still find it unfair, isn’t it?

Best idea is to prevent such situations. Express couriers and tracked shippings sets the risk close to 0.
 

enduser

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I dont sent anything without it being insured for the value paid so if it gets lost you can claim back from the postal service.

Most carriers include counterfeit items on their list of prohibited items so making an insurance claim on a rep watch is potentially fraught with difficulties.
 

stufuse

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Most carriers include counterfeit items on their list of prohibited items so making an insurance claim on a rep watch is potentially fraught with difficulties.

Can be done though.

In a scenario of a lost package a nice way to go about it is like buyer and seller split the loss,

both are without the item and both are not at fault for its loss. Seems a reasonable way.


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stufuse

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Also the seller would be the one to persue any compensation for the loss as they arranged shipping contract.




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p0pperini

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He would only be returning the money he was given in the transaction so he would only be out the item he shipped. So in this case is the buyer that looses out as he has lost the money with no item, and seller has the money. So either way, someone is losing out. I dont sent anything without it being insured for the value paid so if it gets lost you can claim back from the postal service.

Given this reply, it would seem that your original question is rhetorical. So what prompted you to ask?

My own feeling about this is that it's always going to be best for both parties to reach a clear agreement and understanding before the item is shipped.
 
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Nivenj

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The other way around the buyer hadn’t lost anything as he still has his money. Seller just lost his item. I still find it unfair, isn’t it?

Best idea is to prevent such situations. Express couriers and tracked shippings sets the risk close to 0.

Yes, thats by point..in a lost package, either the seller loses the item, or the buyer loses his money. Is it always the buyers risk?
 

Nivenj

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Most carriers include counterfeit items on their list of prohibited items so making an insurance claim on a rep watch is potentially fraught with difficulties.

The question is about lost packages, not seized packages. I cant imagine anyone would describe the lost item as a counterfeit item. Siezed, then yes, I would agree its the buyers risk in a M2M transaction. But lost items I feel are the responsibility of the seller (they chose the courier, had the opportunity to purchase insurance etc).
 

Wolex

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I would agree best way is for seller to include the price of shipping and insure the item for shipping with tracking. No need to mention rep watch. Just say watch but sometimes insurance ask for receipt which can be tricky. This way both is protected of loss of item.
 

W47chl0v3r

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On exchange platforms, the seller is usually the one out of the money. The seller can only see the money if the item is received. Seller should buy insurance or risk not having it.
 

enduser

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I cant imagine anyone would describe the lost item as a counterfeit item.

Maybe not, but then how do you provide evidence of loss, other than to forge a receipt? Buying fake watches is one thing but defrauding an insurance company is another matter altogether.
 

Nivenj

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Maybe not, but then how do you provide evidence of loss, other than to forge a receipt? Buying fake watches is one thing but defrauding an insurance company is another matter altogether.

By providing evidence such as paypal transaction information.
 

enduser

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You would still be defrauding an insurance company I'm afraid - by not telling them that it is a counterfeit item.
 

Nivenj

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You would still be defrauding an insurance company I'm afraid - by not telling them that it is a counterfeit item.

Im no lawyer, but i dont think that is correct (although i guess this is going to be dependent on carrier and country), but certainaly, as far as I can tell reading through Royal Mail's T&C, there is no mention of counterfeit goods in their T&C's of carraige or Claim for loss. There are Exclusions for claim of loss with anything that is prohibited to be sent, however, and interestingly...there is no mention of counterfeit goods being prohibited (Counterfeit currency is there though). So as far as I can tell, making a claim for loss with Royal Mail in the UK would not be fraudulent as you are making a lawful claim based on actual loss.
 

enduser

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Well spotted for the Royal Mail - an interesting loophole. Most of the international couriers (eg DHL, UPS etc) will, however, have restrictions in place and anything booked through comparison websites such as Parcel2Go will also have a tickbox asking you to confirm that the item is not a restricted item.

An alternative solution as to who takes the risk on shipping - if you believe the insurance is effective - is to get the buyer to arrange the shipping. The onus is then on the seller to pack it correctly and get a receipt from the collection courier, and at that point the risk passes to the buyer (and the buyer has the hassle of tracking down lost packages and making insurance claims). Of course, this gets harder to organise in far flung places.

Note that insurance is typically 5% of the value of the item when booked through the international couriers. It's cheaper if you have a commercial marine shipping policy of course, but I doubt these would cover counterfeit goods. I'm assuming the TDs all self-insure. - sending out replacement watches is just a line in their P&L account.
 

C Master

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The transportation of illegal goods always bears risk and there is no hard and fast rule from an RWI perspective governing this event.

There exists a tradition of a gentleman's agreement that the seller and the buyer split the loss as both people are at a loss. Although staff are called a lot to rule on such an event there is nothing that we will enforce in a situation like this. We have to assume both buyer and seller are of good standing and are well capable of making adult decisions between themselves.
 
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Nivenj

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The transportation of illegal goods always bears risk and there is no hard and fast rule from an RWI perspective governing this event.

There exists a tradition of a gentleman's agreement that the seller and the buyer split the loss as both people are at a loss. Although staff are called a lot to rule on such an event there is nothing that we will enforce in a situation like this. We have to assume both buyer and seller are of good standing and are well capable of making adult decisions between themselves.

As I said...the original question was a question on loss, not really a question on seizure. I think we can all agree, seizure is a very different situation. This question is just on lost packages. There are quite a few Gens being sold these days, here and over the road. So lets assume its a gen thats been lost. Does that change peoples thinking here, or is it still buyer risk?
 

micksmith1987

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There exists a tradition of a gentleman's agreement that the seller and the buyer split the loss as both people are at a loss

Generally speaking, I agree 100% that it makes sense for both the seller and the buyer to split the loss.

On the other hand, argument no. 1: don't we all use a standard disclaimer in M2M sales that it is the buyer who takes all the risk and the moment when the package leaves the seller's hands it is on the buyer? If the buyer doesn't like such condition, then does not have to buy.
Argument no. 2: there is a no profiteering rule, that's why M2M watches are cheaper than TD, often by more than 30-40 usd (shipping costs from TDs!). If I recall correctly from economics 101; higher risk=bigger gain; lower risk=higher price. So in other words, you are paying less for a watch, which often is already within the EU (or CONUS), so the custom risk is lower; but on the other hand, if something happens with the parcel, you are screwed. One can always buy from a TD, pay more, but be safe that if anything goes bad, then the TD will figure it out.
And this comes from someone, who stopped buying from TDs and now uses M2M only;)
 
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