What do watch makers think of reps/ franken watches?

[Ayire]

Not to mention that a cloned movement won't even be allowed to get measured by the Swiss Chronometer Testing Institute haha. Even if a clone movement out there is able to pass the tests, it would be unofficially certified.

I also think that buying expensive gens makes you paranoid about it being scratched or lost, with the the more well known brands being the target of thieves. Whereas with reps I couldn't care less about a 300 dollar watch being stolen when it could have been a genuine one. I for one enjoy the hobby, but would not trust myself to invest part of my net worth into watches because of how I wear them and to factor in the risk of them being damaged or stolen. I'm also not one to buy a safe like some people out there.

+1. That's the sole reason why i'm running with reps. I have 2 gen Rolex bought from AD that I rarely use since the watch robberies in my town has skyrocketed.

 

[p0pperini]

It is a symbiotic business relationship. I am sure Rolex makes a bundle from the parts demand within the Rep Industry. I also think the rep industry challenges Rolex with regards to engineering better counterfeit technology, advances in movement/material used (Like precious metals, colored ceramics etc.) that is hard to replicate. In some regards, I think Rolex benefits from the existence of the Rep Industry (which is probably the reason they haven't gone full force to cripple the entire industry despite having the legal/financial backing to do so). It just gives them more food for thought on how to better differentiate their product line and introduce innovation that would makes customers to continue to buy gens.

Interesting perspective, but I have a couple of counterpoints to make.
1. Rolex doesn’t make a bundle from parts demand. They’re actively in the process of putting independent watchsmiths out of business by making it impossible to get hold of spare parts, forcing owners to only use official Rolex service centres.
2. Rolex hasn’t gone full force to cripple the rep industry because the rep industry is in China, and therefore completely out of reach of the Western legal system.
So, I don’t see the same “symbiosis” to the relationship. If the Swiss companies had the opportunity to shut down the fake Chinese factories, they’d leap at it. But China has an industrial culture based on copying tech and knocking out cheap clones, and a political culture of kickbacks and bribes that keeps it all running to the advantage of those in power there.

 

[KOT1917]

+1. That's the sole reason why i'm running with reps. I have 2 gen Rolex bought from AD that I rarely use since the watch robberies in my town has skyrocketed.

A good argument at the expense of theft and robbery, but more often those who rob on the streets do not distinguish between noob panerai and h-fac., In the best case, "what looks like rolex" from "what doesn't look like rolex." It is clear that during the robbery I will not lose the extra money, but getting a pipe on the head in the gateway for rep was a shame for me ....

 

[KOT1917]

Luxury brands, it does not matter in the field of watches, or something else, sell their products primarily to a person who wants to have an extra-expensive thing. In general, it does not matter what it looks like, because what AP and Rolex will sell and will be considered cool. In this case, the brand can sell the shit flyer as a bracelet, but only if it costs $ 50,000, it comes with a box and documents and any passerby knows that it costs so much, and if you can sale this after use, without money loose. And the target audience will prefer it over chicran rep rolex, which no one can distinguish, but will know that its price is only $ 500. So in e they get what they want. This is a choice, but no concurrent. And I'm glad that I have it.

 

[srhoque]

Interesting perspective, but I have a couple of counterpoints to make.
1. Rolex doesn’t make a bundle from parts demand. They’re actively in the process of putting independent watchsmiths out of business by making it impossible to get hold of spare parts, forcing owners to only use official Rolex service centres.
2. Rolex hasn’t gone full force to cripple the rep industry because the rep industry is in China, and therefore completely out of reach of the Western legal system.
So, I don’t see the same “symbiosis” to the relationship. If the Swiss companies had the opportunity to shut down the fake Chinese factories, they’d leap at it. But China has an industrial culture based on copying tech and knocking out cheap clones, and a political culture of kickbacks and bribes that keeps it all running to the advantage of those in power there.

The official service centers and AD are the ones often "leaking" the parts

 

[chocolito]

My mind is racing with thoughts on this topic. First off, Rolex (and others) limits production, resulting in long wait periods for many of their watches.

Rolex don't limit production they have a warehouse full of watches. They limit distribution which is a marketing ploy . It allows them to keep new prices high , as customers believe they are buying something exclusive , almost personally made for them . This also inflates second hand values , meaning their customers if not buying the watch as an investment, at least will retain a large amount of the original purchase price in residual value on the used markets.
As they say there are two used watch markets ' the Rolex market and everybody else '.

 

[W47chl0v3r]

The official service centers and AD are the ones often "leaking" the parts

Does that mean the parts go "missing" and individual employees get the money, or the actual service center/AD?

 

[srhoque]

Does that mean the parts go "missing" and individual employees get the money, or the actual service center/AD?

All Service Center and AD parts are strictly for Gen Rolex servicing and repair. But sometime they are released (sold) to third party which then ends up on Chrono24, ebay, TRF, M2M etc. I am not sure but probably the profit is shared by everyone in the chain. Rolex is getting very strict about this lately. They are doing inventory counts more frequently now and keeping a tight watch on the supply chain. In fact, more and more parts are becoming "exchange only" now.

A lot of Grey market dealers also do Mods and sell parts (Example: They put custom diamond dials on GMT/Sub and sell the original Rolex dial).

 

[Kacki]

Noob to this forum but not to western consumerism

I only recently got interested in watches as a hobby, for lack of a better word. Previously (for many decades) it was "old watch broke, time for a new one". I enjoyed watches, sure, but rarely owned more than one 'nice one', and even that wasn't all that nice (under $1K, say).

I could, if I saw the value, buy one or two gens (as can most/many of you). But taking into consideration the theft/damage potential, the artificially limited supply by some gens makers (frankly, that borders on illegal in my mind), and the likelihood of huge profits being made by gens, some of which is due to aforementioned practice, I have gravitated to reps (don't have one yet, still doing my homework).

However I COULD see a day coming when, after owning and enjoying say 2-5 reps over the next couple of years, I might say, ok let's get this particular Gen. I'd have to overcome the above mental blocks first but the gateway drug argument above makes sense with this perspective.

I read somewhere that Rolex brags that they are 'the most copied brand'. If true that seems to indicate they might even benefit from reps.

 

[Ams55557]

If gen factories believed they benefit from the rep market they would simply directly inject themselves into the rep market. Business is all about it controlling supply, demand and the channels between.

If something doesn’t have a direct and measurable yield to revenue, I think you’re kidding yourself if you think that any business would think it’s a positive to the bottom line.

 

[JOP]

You sound like someone that can't understund how many people live on this planet. There is no way that a gen factory could cover the demand.
And yes, gen factories are allready in the "rep" bussines many years now, what do you think that brands like steinhart are?

Reps are an inteligent, efficient and self funded tool that spreads the watch culture in amounts of people that gen factories would never imagine.
The only people that will be justified annoyed by the reps are those that like to feel superiors against other people by the possession of a luxury watch.
Those, i believe, are the only reason that gen factories are against reps.

 

[KOT1917]

You sound like someone that can't understund how many people live on this planet. There is no way that a gen factory could cover the demand.
And yes, gen factories are allready in the "rep" bussines many years now, what do you think that brands like steinhart are?

Reps are an inteligent, efficient and self funded tool that spreads the watch culture in amounts of people that gen factories would never imagine.
The only people that will be justified annoyed by the reps are those that like to feel superiors against other people by the possession of a luxury watch.
Those, i believe, are the only reason that gen factories are against reps.

Exactly! They are not guarding their money. They protect the self-esteem of their customers.

 

[mydnytrydr]

A friend of mine sells gens and has an impressive watch collection himself ….. He says a couple of years ago, he could spot a "fake" on the wrist fairly easily. Now, for the high end reps, he often needs a loop. The general consensus amongst the AD's and people in the high end genuine watch world is they see for themselves that rep watches are getting better and better, and they don't like it (and that's putting it mildly) …

 

[YellowFin]

Exactly! They are not guarding their money. They protect the self-esteem of their customers.

True story. Rolex and Patek couldn't care less about replicas, they just need to be the knights in shiny armour protecting their customers. When someone buys a Patek for 100 grand after waiting three years for that day to come, he wants to be sure that no punk can wear a watch that looks exactly like his from an arm's length away.

 

[W47chl0v3r]

True story. Rolex and Patek couldn't care less about replicas, they just need to be the knights in shiny armour protecting their customers. When someone buys a Patek for 100 grand after waiting three years for that day to come, he wants to be sure that no punk can wear a watch that looks exactly like his from an arm's length away.

I think rolex and patek are on different planets when it comes to a customer base. Don't generalize their opinions in the same breath. After reading the responses to my first question lately, I have learned the following 1) I am certain that Rolex loses out on a lot of customers because the reps are so good nowadays, along with Omega reps. A person that can afford a 500 dollar watch can probably afford a genuine 6k rolex but does so because they look so much alike without the baggage that comes along with a genuine watch. Also, Rolex doesn't want to enable the rep industry by supplying parts to grey markets given that rolex is so anal about servicing their own watches because theyre hoarding the parts to replace those that generally require replacement during a service. And 2) Patek has been along for 100s of years, and are able to make a single watch that auctioned for 31 million dollars (it was stainless steel too). Good reps have been around for <5. So their response is slower than Rolex's because they make more expensive watches and arent susceptble to being cloned. They arent as nearly affected by them as Rolex is. Hence ROlex's response is way more aggressive than Pateks.

Summary:I think every watch company's response is different because of how reps affect them. Rolex's response is very aggressive, and the higher horology companies don't care too much, suffice it to say, because they aren't as affected by reps.

 

[mclarendude]

You sound like someone that can't understund how many people live on this planet. There is no way that a gen factory could cover the demand.
And yes, gen factories are allready in the "rep" bussines many years now, what do you think that brands like steinhart are?

Reps are an inteligent, efficient and self funded tool that spreads the watch culture in amounts of people that gen factories would never imagine.
The only people that will be justified annoyed by the reps are those that like to feel superiors against other people by the possession of a luxury watch.
Those, i believe, are the only reason that gen factories are against reps.

Beautifully said.

 

[YellowFin]

I think rolex and patek are on different planets when it comes to a customer base. Don't generalize their opinions in the same breath.

I was throwing them together because of the similar business strategy. Only difference: Patek makes as many watches as their resources allow while Rolex intentionally limits the production to raise prices. However, the inretesting models of Rolex are above 10k and have waiting lists up to three years. My conclusion as a sales guy: if your full production is sold out for two years in advance and your customer base accepts yearly price increases of 5% - why should you care about replicas? IMHO the replica rant is pure marketing to pamper the customers, not because the revenue is dropping.

 

[Ams55557]

Ouch.. “You sound like someone that can't und”

Meh, I’ve been called worse by better.

Ok, let me ask all of you folk that believe that the gen companies are “happy” with the gen world.

Do you think that given a magic wand with only one wish, that could only be used on the rep world: would the gen companies wave the rep market away or do nothing? It’s ok to break down your answer at the owner level: swatch, lvmr, richemont, Rolex.

 

[georgiworld2]

One only needs to look at the astronomical increase in genuine parts to recognize, replicas are the best thing that ever happened to Rolex

The better the rep, the more people will pay for genuine!

At least thats how i see it


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[thegolfman]

Noob to this forum but not to western consumerism

I only recently got interested in watches as a hobby, for lack of a better word. Previously (for many decades) it was "old watch broke, time for a new one". I enjoyed watches, sure, but rarely owned more than one 'nice one', and even that wasn't all that nice (under $1K, say).

I could, if I saw the value, buy one or two gens (as can most/many of you). But taking into consideration the theft/damage potential, the artificially limited supply by some gens makers (frankly, that borders on illegal in my mind), and the likelihood of huge profits being made by gens, some of which is due to aforementioned practice, I have gravitated to reps (don't have one yet, still doing my homework).

However I COULD see a day coming when, after owning and enjoying say 2-5 reps over the next couple of years, I might say, ok let's get this particular Gen. I'd have to overcome the above mental blocks first but the gateway drug argument above makes sense with this perspective.

I read somewhere that Rolex brags that they are 'the most copied brand'. If true that seems to indicate they might even benefit from reps.

I'm in agreement with this position...have a couple of Gens new to the Rep game. Have learned a lot about pricing practices of Gen manufacturers and it's pretty unseemly, but to each their own...they have to deal with those consequences of creating opposing forces in a free market system. I don't sincerely think the Men companies really want to eliminate Reps only because it's essentially another marketing strategy: it creates visibility, influencing more demand over the long term, and that all aligns with supporting their pricing models. Along the way (I saw my first Rep 30+ years ago), the Gen companies figured out all this "marketing support" from Reps was actually free. A win-win for them, I suppose.