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What do watch makers think of reps/ franken watches?

W47chl0v3r

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Does anyone know what the top brands think of these high quality reps, frankens, or superfrankens?

I know they send letters to people that buy replicas from law offices, but because 99.9% of the replica community don't try to sell reps or scam anyone I'm wondering what the general consensus is from these watch makers. Do reps or frankens help the brands or hurt them? Do reps or frankens make the watch collecting more accessible for the laymen, and if this is true is that bad?

This is is meant to be a discussion, so let me hear your opinions. I genuinely am interested in what watch makers think of these. If we can walk into an AD with reps or frankens and not get called out didn't we beat the system, assuming that we wear the watches we want to wear.
 

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When you say watchmakers, do you mean a person who repairs a watch or do you mean a watch company/manufacturer?

Replicas, frankens, super frankens are rip-offs of a watch company's product. It is basically stealing their intellectual property. How would you feel if you spent lots of money (millions) into research, manufacture, promotion, quality control etc to have a few people in an obscure factory in Asia do a hell of a good job and sell something that looks the same, almost works the same and with the same brand name on it at a literal fraction of what you're asking at an even smaller fraction of the cost to make? Right.

Of course it hurts them. It pushes them to invest more into anti-counterfeiting mechanisms, more lawyers to write those letters, more resources to crack down on the people who make the reps.

Companies, like Rolex, are anal (and I am not exaggerating with the use of such word) with their used parts. You send a watch to them for full service/restoration? You ain't getting the old parts back. They won't even allow you to keep the old parts on the watch. That's why so many people do not send their vintage watches to them, just to be able to keep their vintage dial/parts. Hence why it is somewhat hard to find gen parts for us to make frankens. It isn't imposible, but it can be hard.

And no, I disagree about beating the system by walking into an AD. Yes, you can do it and if you do, don't call attention to your own watch. But, I, out of respect, don't go into an AD wearing any of my reps. I go with my gen Omega SMP. That's just me.

Frankens do not make it more accesible to laymen, IMHO. It makes it accesible for people who have a passion for this hobby, not for someone who wants to pretend that they made it in life. Frankens aren't cheap. It's not bad for us, it's bad for the watch manufacturer, like Rolex. You're spending $1200. Rolex sells theirs at $8000. You lost $1200, Rolex or their AD lost $8000 or whatever the watch is bought by the AD at cost. It depreciates to an extent their brand, in my opinion.

My two cents. Being here for 9 years have helped create this opinion.
 
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W47chl0v3r

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I agree with what you said about the copyright infringement as the illegal aspect of these. That is a given due to patent law. Heck, some factories buy and clone (reverse engineer) movements that these watch makers created and developed which is definitely illegal for those factories. But the consumers aren't involved in the factories...

I am wondering that because there are spare parts available on the secondary market, the rep/franken world would exist no matter what because of the very nature of people being able to put random parts from watches together.

On another note. I wouldn't walk into an AD with a replica on either. The reality is that these reps are so good that we have the option to do that, and pass a a rep as a real watch. Just here to spark discussion. I respect your opinion, and it just goes to show that for 10s of thousands of dollars you can have a movement and watch that costs what it does because of the skilled labor involved. But even so, watch makers makers make so much profit that they even hire lawyers and fight against copyright infringement etc, so is the 8k even worth it as an asking price when some of that money is spent hiring lawyers to fight against copyright infringement? Asian factories, about 10 or so, can produce nearly the same watch if not identical to the untrained eye at a fraction of the cost without needing all the "extras" that watchmakers get. I'm wondering if you think there are diminishing returns with buying from an AD.
 
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mclarendude

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I agree with what you said about the copyright infringement as the illegal aspect of these. That is a given due to patent law. Heck, some factories buy and clone (reverse engineer) movements that these watch makers created and developed which is definitely illegal for those factories. But the consumers aren't involved in the factories...

I am wondering that because there are spare parts available on the secondary market, the rep/franken world would exist no matter what because of the very nature of people being able to put random parts from watches together.

On another note. I wouldn't walk into an AD with a replica on either. The reality is that these reps are so good that we have the option to do that, and pass a a rep as a real watch. Just here to spark discussion. I respect your opinion, and it just goes to show that for 10s of thousands of dollars you can have a movement and watch that costs what it does because of the skilled labor involved. But even so, watch makers makers make so much profit that they even hire lawyers and fight against copyright infringement etc, so is the 8k even worth it as an asking price when some of that money is spent hiring lawyers to fight against copyright infringement? Asian factories, about 10 or so, can produce nearly the same watch if not identical to the untrained eye at a fraction of the cost without needing all the "extras" that watchmakers get. I'm wondering if you think there are diminishing returns with buying from an AD.

It’s good discussion.

Well, without consumers there is no factories reverse engineering their things.

Yes, there is a secondary market for gen parts, but, manufacturers are cracking down on that.

Manufacturers gotta make a profit, so. The thing is most people don’t know what their money is used by the manufacturer. It doesn’t matter. People buy a Rolex because they can and want to. Whatever happens after that doesn’t matter.

I don’t follow with diminishing returns with buying from an ad. Do elaborate.


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muiramas

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I'd say better reps are going to start hurting the second hand / grey dealers more than the Brands.

Good.

All counterfeits are wrong across many levels.

Be that as it may, if Rolex want to sell me a Submariner I'll gladly buy one, but at the moment their AD's are too busy selling them to greys, so I cant.
 
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W47chl0v3r

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Regarding diminishing returns: Suppose you are looking to buy a watch with a specific design because you like that design. Kind of like wanting to buy jewelry. There are options out there from Tiffany's to custom jewelers that can make the same jewelry from real precious stones and metal but for much much cheaper. Granted the jeweler doesn't stamp Tiffany's logo on it, and either does the person wearing the jewelry pass it off as Tiffany's. I'm talking about the design only. If watches are basically jewelry, then you're paying more for a certain brand name item with much of that cost being spent on the name itself. So the end result is if you want a specific design then you're not getting a much better product from the watch maker (even if it is their design) than if a random factory makes it. Also let's face it. Everything is copied nowadays, even in the legitimate businesses, hence why patent law is a field and a very large one at that.
 

mclarendude

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Regarding diminishing returns: Suppose you are looking to buy a watch with a specific design because you like that design. Kind of like wanting to buy jewelry. There are options out there from Tiffany's to custom jewelers that can make the same jewelry from real precious stones and metal but for much much cheaper. Granted the jeweler doesn't stamp Tiffany's logo on it, and either does the person wearing the jewelry pass it off as Tiffany's. I'm talking about the design only. If watches are basically jewelry, then you're paying more for a certain brand name item with much of that cost being spent on the name itself. So the end result is if you want a specific design then you're not getting a much better product from the watch maker (even if it is their design) than if a random factory makes it. Also let's face it. Everything is copied nowadays, even in the legitimate businesses, hence why patent law is a field and a very large one at that.

Ah, I see. Well, in the end, it is your choice to buy the brand, the design, or both. I'll never forget one of my first ever watches. It was a cheap $20 Quemex that looked like a Submariner. I obviously wanted to buy a Rolex Sub, but I was like 15. I wanted the brand and design, but, I chose the design. So, yes, we could say returns are diminished. People who want a Rolex will buy it no matter what.
 

chubbychaser911

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I think the big companies don’t mind it too much. Getting a replica generally is a gateway drug to buying genuine products. If the replica maker can’t accurately reproduce the watch but gets close it gives the prospective buyer time to sample the general design but also come to truly appreciate the genuine watch based on the deficiencies of the replica. However the problem comes down to if the replica is so good that it provides the same exact experience then the genuine manufacturer has a problem. If a replica movement can not achieve the same level of accuracy and reliability then this leads the consumer to want the genuine. Which is currently the case with 3135 clones for example. They can’t generally achieve COSC specs and hold them as long as genuine 3135 movements. As well as the case shape. The case shape is difficult to reproduce without a high level of hand finishing it seems.

summary: replicas can drive demand for genuine watches so long as the replica can’t ever catch up with the genuine. In order to do this a genuine luxury product could use precious metals only. Or introduce a useful value adding feature that can’t be replicated.
 

pcardoza

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My mind is racing with thoughts on this topic. First off, Rolex (and others) limits production, resulting in long wait periods for many of their watches. So, I don't see how the rep world impacts their sales by a significant amount. That leads me to agree with chubbychaser911 in that the manufacturers may actually benefit somewhat with the rep world drawing in more potential gen customers.

Then I look at the price points of some gens. I have a difficult time looking at a gen sub, for example and seeing $6,000+ worth of materials, labor and overhead. Especially when looking at today's better rep offerings! I'm sitting at my desk typing this with a Noob Pepsi GMT on. I paid $700 to the TD then $180 to have the shit movement replaced with a 2836 gmt. One of our RWI cherished watchsmiths did the work and this thing is amazing! It runs withing 60 seconds per WEEK! I think if the Chinese movements are serviced by a really good watchsmith, they will run as good or better than a gen movement. Longevity? We shall see.

Lastly, there's no way I could afford 30+ gens. I have 3 plus 30 reps. So nobody is really losing out on my purchases.........
 

W47chl0v3r

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If a replica movement can not achieve the same level of accuracy and reliability then this leads the consumer to want the genuine. Which is currently the case with 3135 clones for example. They can’t generally achieve COSC specs and hold them as long as genuine 3135 movements

I read somewhere that to make these movements better some parts need to be interchanged for the genuine parts, like springs etc. Also, don't people buy 3135 movements because of the "benefit" that they can fit gen hands?
 

mclarendude

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I think the big companies don’t mind it too much. Getting a replica generally is a gateway drug to buying genuine products. If the replica maker can’t accurately reproduce the watch but gets close it gives the prospective buyer time to sample the general design but also come to truly appreciate the genuine watch based on the deficiencies of the replica. However the problem comes down to if the replica is so good that it provides the same exact experience then the genuine manufacturer has a problem. If a replica movement can not achieve the same level of accuracy and reliability then this leads the consumer to want the genuine. Which is currently the case with 3135 clones for example. They can’t generally achieve COSC specs and hold them as long as genuine 3135 movements. As well as the case shape. The case shape is difficult to reproduce without a high level of hand finishing it seems.

summary: replicas can drive demand for genuine watches so long as the replica can’t ever catch up with the genuine. In order to do this a genuine luxury product could use precious metals only. Or introduce a useful value adding feature that can’t be replicated.

My mind is racing with thoughts on this topic. First off, Rolex (and others) limits production, resulting in long wait periods for many of their watches. So, I don't see how the rep world impacts their sales by a significant amount. That leads me to agree with chubbychaser911 in that the manufacturers may actually benefit somewhat with the rep world drawing in more potential gen customers.

Then I look at the price points of some gens. I have a difficult time looking at a gen sub, for example and seeing $6,000+ worth of materials, labor and overhead. Especially when looking at today's better rep offerings! I'm sitting at my desk typing this with a Noob Pepsi GMT on. I paid $700 to the TD then $180 to have the shit movement replaced with a 2836 gmt. One of our RWI cherished watchsmiths did the work and this thing is amazing! It runs withing 60 seconds per WEEK! I think if the Chinese movements are serviced by a really good watchsmith, they will run as good or better than a gen movement. Longevity? We shall see.

Lastly, there's no way I could afford 30+ gens. I have 3 plus 30 reps. So nobody is really losing out on my purchases.........


I agree with both of you. Very good points of view.


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chubbychaser911

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They can fit genuine hands yes. But most people like the 3135 movement because it really makes it a true clone. You can change parts to make it more reliable like reversing wheels and main spring for example. But I don't think you can change enough parts for an affordable price to make it COSC capable with the same life span as a genuine Rolex movement, i.e., you can make it COSC compliant but it won't stay that way for as long a period of time as a genuine Rolex.

however, a watch that is +/- 10-15 s/day and can go 5 years between services is a damn fine watch.
 
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W47chl0v3r

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They can’t generally achieve COSC specs and hold them as long as genuine 3135 movements.
Not to mention that a cloned movement won't even be allowed to get measured by the Swiss Chronometer Testing Institute haha. Even if a clone movement out there is able to pass the tests, it would be unofficially certified.

I also think that buying expensive gens makes you paranoid about it being scratched or lost, with the the more well known brands being the target of thieves. Whereas with reps I couldn't care less about a 300 dollar watch being stolen when it could have been a genuine one. I for one enjoy the hobby, but would not trust myself to invest part of my net worth into watches because of how I wear them and to factor in the risk of them being damaged or stolen. I'm also not one to buy a safe like some people out there.
 
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Ams55557

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I often wonder how it works at the individual professional point of view. Rolex and omega are companies. They don’t have points of view. They have policies that protect their corporate revenue. Cool. I get that.

What about the individuals that work there that contribute to the industry of watch making? I work in a competitive industry, while we, the company, hate our competitors, individually I see some excellent talent and professionals. We watch what the competition does and it inspires us to do better and push harder.

Would George Daniels and Roger Dubois sit around at lunch with their staff and discuss how incredible it was that their stuff was copied in far off China? Maybe a couple of the milling crew at R-factory have a relationship with machinists in China and professionals discuss the latest in CNC technology on some forum. It’s sort of a small world after all.
 

W47chl0v3r

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What about the individuals that work there that contribute to the industry of watch making? I work in a competitive industry, while we, the company, hate our competitors, individually I see some excellent talent and professionals. We watch what the competition does and it inspires us to do better and push harder.

I respect the dedication to the trade or science, whatever that it may be. I think The brands don't want to admit it, but some of them have to admire wats happening at these factories. Imagine if they worked together and made the product even cheaper to manufacture!! That would be the day lol.
 

srhoque

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It is a symbiotic business relationship. I am sure Rolex makes a bundle from the parts demand within the Rep Industry. I also think the rep industry challenges Rolex with regards to engineering better counterfeit technology, advances in movement/material used (Like precious metals, colored ceramics etc.) that is hard to replicate. In some regards, I think Rolex benefits from the existence of the Rep Industry (which is probably the reason they haven't gone full force to cripple the entire industry despite having the legal/financial backing to do so). It just gives them more food for thought on how to better differentiate their product line and introduce innovation that would makes customers to continue to buy gens.
 
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Dr Fun Socks

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I think its probable that the big brands who limit supply (ap, rolex) do it to make the mega rich feel more special. These are luxury items at the end of the day. You wont generally find a millionaire showing off his new date just. Why? Because anyone can get a date just and people who know that, know it. In the same light, these mega rich people who buy watches just to stay at the top of the waiting list aren’t ever going to think oh i can get a similar looking watch for 10% of the price from china. These are the main customers for the brands. By reducing the supply of watches they increase the desire to have them. Every one wants something rare and cool, just look at the diamond industry. I don’t think reps really affect their business at all. They are mainly used by less rich people and dudes who want to try before they buy the gen. i know I wouldn’t ever drop £6k on a sub but i’ve spent a hell of a lot more on my boxes of reps. Each to their own i guess. In the same way that hyundai will never hurt the business of bmw (similar but different) i don't think reps will ever eat into the profit of the brands.