Rolex Submariner Rep - a neurotic lawyer's analysis

[lawyered]

I've been a quiet lurker here for the last few months and have been reading as much as I can given my schedule. This is quite an underground community and replica watches seem to attract a certain type of hyper-detailed and obsessed mind. I like indulging in obsessively detail-oriented things as well so I like what goes on here. I had a few reps before – AP Royal Oak JF v5 and Tudor Black Bay 58 ZF v2 (more recently). I haven't been able to get myself to order a Rolex sub because of the flaws that I'm now privy to and cannot unsee. How to decide on a Rolex replica submariner:

ULTIMATELY: please leave some commentary/analysis and YOUR SUBJECTIVE RECOMMENDATION given my circumstances.

**Note - I am not including all details and have created a rough outline based on what I recall **

I want to tackle my question within two broad categories: Theoretical and the Technical.

[Parameters] Watches I’m concerned with for the Theoretical and Technical categories:

No date sub (I’m strongly leaning towards this because I don’t want to franken)

• Noob v8 with clean v2 insert
• ZZF (latest)

Date sub

• ARF (latest)
• Noob v10
• ZZF (latest)

Theoretical:

The question everything turns on – how obvious is it that my rep is not gen? How paranoid should I be of a callout?

• Consideration(s): I am in the legal industry and have friends who own gen subs – I don’t want to spend $7-10K on a watch when reps are this damn good.

Standards of scrutiny (in sunlight for default)

There will be variation here but put some scenarios together:

1. High standard – Person holds your rep in their hand and compares to a gen side-by-side in sunlight
2. Medium standard – Person holds their gen next to your gen (both while on wrist) in sunlight
3. Low standard – Person looks at your rep from afar or looks at your rep without holding their gen next to yours

Three categories:

1. Untrained eye (layman)
   1. This category seems the most straightforward – I can probably presume that these people wont be noticing my bezel being sharp and the lack of frostiness of my rehaut
2. Untrained eye (gen owner)
   1. May not know what to look for but could notice certain things?
3. Trained eye (gen owner)
   1. How obvious will it be to this person?
4. Trained eye (Privy/detailed rep owner/forum jockey/gen owner)
   1. Is this person hyper-obsessive – like me – and will likely see the error?

Technical:

The No Date Sub (Obvious Tells and what can I get away with)

1. Majority view is that the top competitors are ZZF or Noob v8 (with clean v2 insert)
   1. ZZF "Tells"
      1. Rehaut - this seems to be the most obvious "tell" that I've routinely seen RWI and Reddit users complain about and I notice it more than anything else. Curious to know how obvious a "tell" this would be to the average submariner owner and how obvious it would be to the conscientious and detailed submariner owner
      2. Sharp edges around bezel - these are machined closer together and give a sharper edge then gen. This is not a big deal for me, but I'm interested in how obvious it is as a "tell" to the average sub owner and the detailed sub owner
   2. Noob v8 (with clean v2 insert) "Tells"
      1. No obvious tells here when using the clean insert
      2. Case quality is not as good
      3. Steel is not as good

1. The Date Sub (Cyclops)
   1. Majority view is that the best out of the box (OOTB) sub is the ARF, followed by ZZF, then NOOB
      1. But this order is subject to change depending on several factors
         1. ARF "Tells"
            1. Date is thick - I notice this when comparing to a gen and think it's fairly obvious to both the average and detailed sub owner
         2. ZZF "Tells"
            1. Rehaut - this seems to be the most obvious "tell" that I've routinely seen RWI and Reddit users complain about and I notice it more than anything else. Curious to know how obvious a "tell" this would be to the average submariner owner and how obvious it would be to the conscientious and detailed submariner owner
         3. NOOB "Tells"
            1. Insert Markers - not good
            2. Case quality is not as good

 

[efajri]

Geez...you ARE a lawyer. LOL


Sent from my iPhone using RWI

 

[alfonzo]

With all do respect counselor this is just a robust and detailed "Who makes the best rep *" thread. ;-)


<opinion>

I will sum up what I believe are the overarching themes. All reps have flaws, all reps have the potential to be called out however unlikely. Pick the rep with the flaws that bug you the least because as you say it is "subjective". Wear it like you stole it.

I have reps and a Gen and frankies. None have received any comment at all. I work with people that have Gens and Reps and they know nothing of either one. People such as those on this forum would be hard pressed in most business situations to be able to tell a gen from a rep without coming off weird and situationally unaware.

I am a franken guy for the most part and I build my own. I understand you do not want to do that or have one commissioned. You can, however, buy one here. It gives you the best of both worlds and depending on the franky maybe only 1% of the population could call you out and not without looking inside.

</opinion>

 

[Nivka]

That’s some first post!

if you are that worried about getting called out and you don’t want to franken, I’d go for the no date. The sub isn’t a rare watch, so I doubt your mates would be wanting you to take it off so they could study it in detail and pick tells like the rehaut engraving. Either noob or zzf should blow you away - no one is going to call that out looking at in your wrist. If they know what to look for, they’ll be able to tell side by side that the printing isn’t as crisp and the hour indices aren’t as rounded. Either would be much harder to pick as rep compared to the JF 15400

 

[johnlogan]

I advice you counselor to seek out the PAM section of the PT act , https://puretimewatch.io/watch-brands/panerai.html
These Rolex subs will never be perfect whereas many PAMs are considered super REPs.

 

[tripdog]

It's a watch, just a watch.

 

[muiramas]

Legalese for ‘who has the best sub?’

No wonder you guys are so expensive.

 

[redrising]

For a lawyer, I would have expected you to make a post about the legal implication of rep ownership lol

 

[Buck Dancer]

Nice review.
In my opinion, it depends also on what you do with your rep.
Your friends and family don’t care about your watch, so you can wear any rep you want on sunday, even a quartz 5513 with an Hello kitty glossy dial. Just pick the one who makes you happy. A simple watch will always give less tells than a complex one (so you should consider a no date, no gmt, no chrono, no steel bracelet, no cafe late add-on device)

But... A client could spot your fake watch and it is a real deal breaker. For work, if you don’t want to go gen, there are plenty of nice and cheap dress men watch from the 50´

for clients, old granddad’s watch is a very good choice, mostly if it’s a manual winding old shit bought in korea in 56

 

[chocolito]

Geez...you ARE a lawyer. LOL


Sent from my iPhone using RWI

And Geez this is just another long winded fancy smancy ' WHO MAKES THE BEST SUB ' thread .

 

[Tucker]

:jeff:

 

[efajri]

And Geez this is just another long winded fancy smancy ' WHO MAKES THE BEST SUB ' thread .

I know. All lawyers like to write a very wordy essay, and they charge us for their unnecessary time writing that essay. Ridiculous. lol

 

[5t3f4n]

At least we can copy and paste all the sum up of tells and create a sticky for all the newcomers

(Speaking about the Italian section where 9,9 new user out of 10 are always asking about the best sub).

Other than that buy the no date, you'll get a wonderful rep and nobody will care

 

[d4v3]

Well if you get called out, say you bought it as a GEN, pretend to be deeply shocked, and swear by the all might judges, you will put this malicious person behind a cold, dark and dirt prision bars.
*wink*

 

[sfgerl]

Here's another alternative for you... Spend a little more (you can afford it, you know you can), and get a custom build of a vintage rep watch from yodog! You should know why it's worth the extra $:

He builds these watches using Vietnam cases that have 1:1 specs to gen, with proper engravings and case markings, and he modifies the crown guards so they are 1:1 accurate. The dials he uses are hand-painted in Vietnam, and are the same kind of dials used as service replacements by Rolex. No, of course the watches don't have gen movements, but do have very accurate Chinese movements (who looks inside, anyway?) He uses custom-made date wheels and bezel inserts that are VERY close to gen. He vintages the lumes, etc. by his artistry and skill.


On the face of it (no pun intended) these are rep watches, true - but they are really works of art from a master builder.

Consider this-

THE FOLLOWING IS A TRUE STORY:

I am a professional (and a female) and practice in SF. There are lots of folks I see with big, big bucks (I am not one of them, since I went into the wrong profession 30 years ago for that )


I like watches like some other women like shoes or bags. Always have.


A few weeks ago I was wearing a vintaged 1675 GMT Master with Pepsi bezel on a vintage leather strap - it is a beautiful watch, made by yodog.

A 40'ish guy who fancies himself a watch geek (and who later told me is one of the bigshots on the local RedBar community) came in with a family member.

Him: (Said with a big smile) "Nice watch!!"

Me: I looked at him like "Oh, this ol' thing?" and said somewhat nonchalantly, "Thanks!"

He never asked for me to take it off, nor did he attempt to look at it more closely. He was obviously proud of his ability to recognize the watch.

Him: "Do you know XXX at XXX?" (A clerk at a local established horology store here in SF, known for their gen Rolex watches. I knew the name of the store from this forum!)

Me: "Nah, it was a gift from one of my father's friends years ago." (For the record, my Dad is 93 and a WW2 vet, very much alive, and has never hobnobbed with anyone who owned a Rolex).

Him: "You know, that's a $20,000 watch!" (Said like "Be proud to have it!")

Me: (laughing in mock stupid surprise) "Omigosh, maybe I shouldn't wear it at work then, if it's worth that much money!"

Him: "Oh nooooooo! That's what it was meant for! Congratulations!" He then rolls up his sleeve and shows me a Tudor Black Bay (which was likely NOT a rep) and says, "I just got this!"

Me: "That's a beauty!"

Him: "Have you ever heard of Redbar?" (I had not). "Send me your email, come join our club, I'm one of the board members. We have lots of fun talking about watches!"

Me: "Not right now, thanks, but let me think about it. I'll look it up on the web, maybe I will join! Thank you sooo much for the information! I feel like I just was on Antiques Roadshow!"

Him: "Well, there was a GMT Master that someone brought in on the show, once. Is yours a I or II? It should say after the GMT Master on the dial"

Me: "Gee, I dunno." I look at my watch. "There's nothing, just GMT Master."

Him: "Well, then it's a (...whatever, can't recall what he said...) Enjoy!" big smile and wave goodbye.

Me: "Wow, thank you so much!"


That's a long-winded way of saying, think about this: spend the 2 - 3x that a stock rep would cost, and have a master like yodog custom build one for you. The majority of Rolex wearers know BEANS about vintage models and are very, very unlikely to call you out on it. The guy that saw mine was probably a category 3.5 on your "trained eye" scale. Even he did not ask to see it more closely, and the odds that he would be wearing the EXACT same watch to do a "side-by-side" comparison was very, very small. Plus, you can always play the "Gee, it was a gift from my father/grandfather or friend of my father, etc." line and act dumb.

That way, even if they spot it as a rep (again, highly unlikely if you get a master like yodog to do the build) the worse they'll think is: "Gee, I can't bring myself to tell this guy it's not a genuine Rolex, I'll just keep my mouth shut and let him think it is."

Far better to have that than "This guy thinks he's a bigshot, and is rocking a fake Rolex" (especially if your hourly rate is high )


Vintage Rolex have a smaller following, and speak their own, different, and IMHO understated elegance kind of language. Unlike newer, flashier models with the ceramic dials and cyclops, the push button Daytonas, etc. they speak of an old Harris tweed jacket from 50 years ago, with worn leather elbow patches, that you wear with a crisp white shirt and selvedged Levis - or an old 911 Turbo that you use as a daily beater car. Or the vintage mid-century barware that you use instead of flashy crystal. They don't speak of Teslas or the latest model Corvette. I don't know which category "fits" you, but it's something to think about.


Having said all that, I DO also have a highly-frankened Hulk (because that particular model can have a LOT of tells), and two other gorgeous vintage rep builds from yodog, which I show in the photos below.


That'll be $500, please - for my time.


Here are my three vintaged reps, all built by yodog


(Note that the photo below, of the GMT Master with the Pepsi bezel - from the story above - is from yodog just after his build - mine is NOT on this strap):



A 1675 GMTMaster with black bezel:




A 1680 Red Sub - I wear this on a vintage leather strap also.





Yes, the rep world is full of surprises! Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[tripdog]

Here's another alternative for you... Spend a little more (you can afford it, you know you can), and get a custom build of a vintage rep watch from yodog! You should know why it's worth the extra $:

He builds these watches using Vietnam cases that have 1:1 specs to gen, with proper engravings and case markings, and he modifies the crown guards so they are 1:1 accurate. The dials he uses are hand-painted in Vietnam, and are the same kind of dials used as service replacements by Rolex. No, of course the watches don't have gen movements, but do have very accurate Chinese movements (who looks inside, anyway?) He uses custom-made date wheels and bezel inserts that are VERY close to gen. He vintages the lumes, etc. by his artistry and skill.


On the face of it (no pun intended) these are rep watches, true - but they are really works of art from a master builder.

Consider this-

THE FOLLOWING IS A TRUE STORY:

I am a professional (and a female) and practice in SF. There are lots of folks I see with big, big bucks (I am not one of them, since I went into the wrong profession 30 years ago for that )


I like watches like some other women like shoes or bags. Always have.


A few weeks ago I was wearing a vintaged 1675 GMT Master with Pepsi bezel on a vintage leather strap - it is a beautiful watch, made by yodog.

A 40'ish guy who fancies himself a watch geek (and who later told me is one of the bigshots on the local RedBar community) came in with a family member.

Him: (Said with a big smile) "Nice watch!!"

Me: I looked at him like "Oh, this ol' thing?" and said somewhat nonchalantly, "Thanks!"

He never asked for me to take it off, nor did he attempt to look at it more closely. He was obviously proud of his ability to recognize the watch.

Him: "Do you know XXX at XXX?" (A clerk at a local established horology store here in SF, known for their gen Rolex watches. I knew the name of the store from this forum!)

Me: "Nah, it was a gift from one of my father's friends years ago." (For the record, my Dad is 93 and a WW2 vet, very much alive, and has never hobnobbed with anyone who owned a Rolex).

Him: "You know, that's a $20,000 watch!" (Said like "Be proud to have it!")

Me: (laughing in mock stupid surprise) "Omigosh, maybe I shouldn't wear it at work then, if it's worth that much money!"

Him: "Oh nooooooo! That's what it was meant for! Congratulations!" He then rolls up his sleeve and shows me a Tudor Black Bay (which was likely NOT a rep) and says, "I just got this!"

Me: "That's a beauty!"

Him: "Have you ever heard of Redbar?" (I had not). "Send me your email, come join our club, I'm one of the board members. We have lots of fun talking about watches!"

Me: "Not right now, thanks, but let me think about it. I'll look it up on the web, maybe I will join! Thank you sooo much for the information! I feel like I just was on Antiques Roadshow!"

Him: "Well, there was a GMT Master that someone brought in on the show, once. Is yours a I or II? It should say after the GMT Master on the dial"

Me: "Gee, I dunno." I look at my watch. "There's nothing, just GMT Master."

Him: "Well, then it's a (...whatever, can't recall what he said...) Enjoy!" big smile and wave goodbye.

Me: "Wow, thank you so much!"


That's a long-winded way of saying, think about this: spend the 2 - 3x that a stock rep would cost, and have a master like yodog custom build one for you. The majority of Rolex wearers know BEANS about vintage models and are very, very unlikely to call you out on it. The guy that saw mine was probably a category 3.5 on your "trained eye" scale. Even he did not ask to see it more closely, and the odds that he would be wearing the EXACT same watch to do a "side-by-side" comparison was very, very small. Plus, you can always play the "Gee, it was a gift from my father/grandfather or friend of my father, etc." line and act dumb.

That way, even if they spot it as a rep (again, highly unlikely if you get a master like yodog to do the build) the worse they'll think is: "Gee, I can't bring myself to tell this guy it's not a genuine Rolex, I'll just keep my mouth shut and let him think it is."

Far better to have that than "This guy thinks he's a bigshot, and is rocking a fake Rolex" (especially if your hourly rate is high )


Vintage Rolex have a smaller following, and speak their own, different, and IMHO understated elegance kind of language. Unlike newer, flashier models with the ceramic dials and cyclops, the push button Daytonas, etc. they speak of an old Harris tweed jacket from 50 years ago, with worn leather elbow patches, that you wear with a crisp white shirt and selvedged Levis - or an old 911 Turbo that you use as a daily beater car. Or the vintage mid-century barware that you use instead of flashy crystal. They don't speak of Teslas or the latest model Corvette. I don't know which category "fits" you, but it's something to think about.


Having said all that, I DO also have a highly-frankened Hulk (because that particular model can have a LOT of tells), and two other gorgeous vintage rep builds from yodog, which I show in the photos below.


That'll be $500, please - for my time.


Here are my three vintaged reps, all built by yodog


(Note that the photo below, of the GMT Master with the Pepsi bezel - from the story above - is from yodog just after his build - mine is NOT on this strap):



A 1675 GMTMaster with black bezel:




A 1680 Red Sub - I wear this on a vintage leather strap also.





Yes, the rep world is full of surprises! Happy Thanksgiving!

Great anecdote there !

So who built the GMT 1675 for you ?

 

[sfgerl]

yodog built all three!

 

[tripdog]

yodog built all three!

Thanks ! - must have missed that in the text.

 

[Colibri]

I've been a quiet lurker here for the last few months and have been reading as much as I can given my schedule. This is quite an underground community and replica watches seem to attract a certain type of hyper-detailed and obsessed mind. I like indulging in obsessively detail-oriented things as well so I like what goes on here. I had a few reps before – AP Royal Oak JF v5 and Tudor Black Bay 58 ZF v2 (more recently). I haven't been able to get myself to order a Rolex sub because of the flaws that I'm now privy to and cannot unsee. How to decide on a Rolex replica submariner:

ULTIMATELY: please leave some commentary/analysis and YOUR SUBJECTIVE RECOMMENDATION given my circumstances.

**Note - I am not including all details and have created a rough outline based on what I recall **

I want to tackle my question within two broad categories: Theoretical and the Technical.

[Parameters] Watches I’m concerned with for the Theoretical and Technical categories:

No date sub (I’m strongly leaning towards this because I don’t want to franken)

• Noob v8 with clean v2 insert
• ZZF (latest)

Date sub

• ARF (latest)
• Noob v10
• ZZF (latest)

Theoretical:

The question everything turns on – how obvious is it that my rep is not gen? How paranoid should I be of a callout?

• Consideration(s): I am in the legal industry and have friends who own gen subs – I don’t want to spend $7-10K on a watch when reps are this damn good.

Standards of scrutiny (in sunlight for default)

There will be variation here but put some scenarios together:

1. High standard – Person holds your rep in their hand and compares to a gen side-by-side in sunlight
2. Medium standard – Person holds their gen next to your gen (both while on wrist) in sunlight
3. Low standard – Person looks at your rep from afar or looks at your rep without holding their gen next to yours

Three categories:

1. Untrained eye (layman)
   1. This category seems the most straightforward – I can probably presume that these people wont be noticing my bezel being sharp and the lack of frostiness of my rehaut
2. Untrained eye (gen owner)
   1. May not know what to look for but could notice certain things?
3. Trained eye (gen owner)
   1. How obvious will it be to this person?
4. Trained eye (Privy/detailed rep owner/forum jockey/gen owner)
   1. Is this person hyper-obsessive – like me – and will likely see the error?

Technical:

The No Date Sub (Obvious Tells and what can I get away with)

1. Majority view is that the top competitors are ZZF or Noob v8 (with clean v2 insert)
   1. ZZF "Tells"
      1. Rehaut - this seems to be the most obvious "tell" that I've routinely seen RWI and Reddit users complain about and I notice it more than anything else. Curious to know how obvious a "tell" this would be to the average submariner owner and how obvious it would be to the conscientious and detailed submariner owner
      2. Sharp edges around bezel - these are machined closer together and give a sharper edge then gen. This is not a big deal for me, but I'm interested in how obvious it is as a "tell" to the average sub owner and the detailed sub owner
   2. Noob v8 (with clean v2 insert) "Tells"
      1. No obvious tells here when using the clean insert
      2. Case quality is not as good
      3. Steel is not as good

1. The Date Sub (Cyclops)
   1. Majority view is that the best out of the box (OOTB) sub is the ARF, followed by ZZF, then NOOB
      1. But this order is subject to change depending on several factors
         1. ARF "Tells"
            1. Date is thick - I notice this when comparing to a gen and think it's fairly obvious to both the average and detailed sub owner
         2. ZZF "Tells"
            1. Rehaut - this seems to be the most obvious "tell" that I've routinely seen RWI and Reddit users complain about and I notice it more than anything else. Curious to know how obvious a "tell" this would be to the average submariner owner and how obvious it would be to the conscientious and detailed submariner owner
         3. NOOB "Tells"
            1. Insert Markers - not good
            2. Case quality is not as good

great post!

 

[velox]

One of my close friend has a 2011 gen Hulk. Its pretty worn and he really doesnt know alot about watches. He just likes the idea its Rolex.
He saw my super-franken Hulk (its in pristine condition), tried it on and even wanted to trade his Hulk with mine + $ as it looked "better". He didnt see it was a rep, even comparing them side by side. And, he did not belive it was not gen when i told him.