SS 316L vs. 316F vs. 904L- The final VERDICT- A technical study

[ALE7575]

Hello my friend! I don't know how I missed this thread initially, but it's top-quality. Thank you for your contribution!

Hello my dear friend Anopsis!!
Thank you so much for your kind and nice comments
You are always encouraging for me.
It is a pleasure contributing in this forum with members like you.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of interesting information missing in the pages of this forum!! It is not your fault.

There are very curious things, I answered to a "fitipaldi" thread about rebrushing two damaged AP bezel, showing a system to brushing and repair the bezels. In few time we had almost 500 visits!! for the post placed inside another thread!!
Encouraged by that, I have placed an especific Thread with all systems, data and informations about brushing and polishing damaged bezels. At this moment I have just about 30 visits and "ZERO" 0-0-0 answer
(???)
Perhaps it is still early!!!

Regards

 

[Anopsis]

Encouraged by that, I have placed an especific Thread with all systems, data and informations about brushing and polishing damaged bezels. At this moment I have just about 30 visits and "ZERO" 0-0-0 answer
(???)
Perhaps it is still early!!!

I missed that, but once I'm back on my desktop I'll look for it!

I have noticed that it's easy to miss good threads, especially depending on the time of day they are posted. When I log on to RWI I check threads I've been active in, then I check new posts.
Every morning there are many, many pages of new posts, so after reading a few I start scanning the topics for interesting threads. Even then I don't usually get more than a couple pages in before I have to go.
I have noticed that threads started in the middle of the night (CONUS) get buried quicker by new threads in the morning.
What I would suggest for your wonderful, informative posts is that you create links to them in your signature space. That way we'll see them referenced in each of your posts!

Regards


---
- Back on my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tiresmoke]

Maybe we can sticky this thread?

 

[ALE7575]

I have noticed that it's easy to miss good threads, especially depending on the time of day they are posted...
I have noticed that threads started in the middle of the night (CONUS) get buried quicker by new threads in the morning....
... create links to them in your signature space...

Wonderful, informative advices!!
You are an assets for me and for the forum my friend!!
Very helpful
I'm going to try do it
Thanks so much

Maybe we can sticky this thread?

Many thanks tiresmoke
This is not my decision, I think is a decision for RWI staff!!
Thansk for your support my friend

 

[aratron]

I can't believe I just now found this thread ... awesome write up ALE!!!

I am in no way an expert in this. But isn't the 400 series SS cheaper then 316s? Is there a reason why 400s are no being used? My understanding is that the 440C is a great material. But there are no Ni in the mix so probably won't give out a good color? Also the high content of carbon probably makes machining harder ... just my guesses. What do you think?

 

[ALE7575]

I can't believe I just now found this thread ... awesome write up ALE!!!

I am in no way an expert in this. But isn't the 400 series SS cheaper then 316s? Is there a reason why 400s are no being used? My understanding is that the 440C is a great material. But there are no Ni in the mix so probably won't give out a good color? Also the high content of carbon probably makes machining harder ... just my guesses. What do you think?

Hi aratron,

Sorry for late at reply, but last days I have been very busy preparing and answering my last thread about “BRUSHING AND POLISHING damaged bezels†(now a Sticky Thread)

Firstly, many thanks for your kind comments.
You are very modest. I see you are not a noob on this matter!
Your questions are very timely and give idea of your knowledge about the SS.
You are asking for some interesting things.
In fact, I thought it was not necessary in this Thread speak about this SS 440 matter, But, by your post, I have seen I was wrong!
Really it is interesting to clarify this question to not have misunderstanding in the future.

Let’s start from the chemical composition:

SS 440
Ni - 0%
Cr- 16-18%
Mo- < 0,75%
Mn- <1%
P- < 0,04%
S- <0,03%
Si- < 1%
C- 0,65-1,20% (depending on grade)
Fe- the rest

As you can see it is a SS without Ni. It is “stainless†just for the Cr content.
Its C content is higher than 316 series.
As usually, this chemical composition gives it especial physical properties.
In comparison with SS 316 series, we can find:

- SS 440 is a SS martensitic type. SS 316 is an austenitic type.
- SS 440 is magnetic. SS 316 are no magnetic.
- SS 440 can be heat treated to become very very hard.
- SS 440 is harder in annealed condition and a lot harder after heat treatment.
- SS 440 annealed is less easy for machining, but after heat treatment it will be almost impossible for machining.
- SS 440 is “white†and shiny. Like a chromed steel by electrolysis.
- SS 440 has less corrosion resistant properties than SS 316 series.

The main application of SS 440 is in cutting instruments, valves seat, rolling elements bearings, surgical instruments, chisels, high grade knifes, scissors, swords, daggers…
SS 440 is a very good and hard Steel and it allows heat hardening treatments, it has a very “white†and shiny colour (like a chromed steel by electrolysis), it is a medium grade SS machining performance and corrosion resistant. It is used for cutting instruments and items which need high hardness.
The 440 is not a SS for high quality watches due to corrosion resistance, machining performance, magnetic properties and colour.
The price of a SS 440 is cheaper than the price of a SS 316 series, due to it has not Ni in its chemical composition.

I hope these explanations answer your questions.

But there is a question without reply:
Since the SS 440 is cheaper than SS 316, why some (bad) dealers say that their replicas are made of SS 440?

I have never definitive reply for this question!! I have some thoughts or ideas but I’m not sure.
- Because people think (and perhaps those dealers) that a higher number means more quality. The higher the number the higher the quality.
- Because people think (and perhaps those dealers) that a higher hardness means better quality.
- Because the bad replicas are made with low grade Steel chromed by electrolysis and the SS440 is similar in colour or, even, with a very low-grade SS cheaper than SS 440. Then, the dealers say that their replicas are made of SS 440 (?), but they are really made of very low grade steel.

Whatever the dealers motives may have been, they are using the name of SS 440 on their profits, and it is clear that there are not replicas made of SS 440.

I hope all is clear now

 

[tommy_boy]

This thread is very interesting and I appreciate your contribution, ALE!

 

[ALE7575]

This thread is very interesting and I appreciate your contribution, ALE!

Hi tommy boy
Many thanks for your kind acknowledgement and comments
Regards

 

[watsondog]

ALE, an excellent contribution tothis Forum.

I have one question. Where does so called 'Surgical Steel' come into this ?

 

[coop]

Fantastic post!
So basically the dealers are lying to us (again) to line their own pockets. The problem is we keep "feeding the beast". People were (still are) buying the so called "rolex clone movements", which as far Im concerned would only be used to resell and trick an unknowing buyer (if you can get 28k from an asian eta clone why pay extra to make it look like a rollie movement?), and now they have been getting us to pay more for a watch that actually cost less to make. We've been talking for years about how to fix these problems, my conclusion? We cant.

If this thread hasnt been stickied yet, it should be.

 

[ALE7575]

ALE, an excellent contribution tothis Forum.

I have one question. Where does so called 'Surgical Steel' come into this ?

Thanks for your comments
Concerning Surgical steel please read the above post #46 in this thread

Fantastic post!
So basically the dealers are lying to us (again) to line their own pockets. The problem is we keep "feeding the beast". People were (still are) buying the so called "rolex clone movements", which as far Im concerned would only be used to resell and trick an unknowing buyer (if you can get 28k from an asian eta clone why pay extra to make it look like a rollie movement?), and now they have been getting us to pay more for a watch that actually cost less to make. We've been talking for years about how to fix these problems, my conclusion? We cant.

If this thread hasnt been stickied yet, it should be.

Many thanks coop for your kind and nice comments.
I'm overwhelmed by them.

As you see I agree your statements
Concerning movements I agree too. Please read my thread:
Rules to choose a Milgauss rep
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/rules-choose-milgauss-rep-pics-81731.htm

concerning Sticky, of course, it is not my decission, but i think it could be interesting for all people in this forum

 

[Member X]

*chants*

Sti-cky! Sti-cky! Sti-cky!

 

[ALE7575]

*chants*

Sti-cky! Sti-cky! Sti-cky!

THANKS! THANKS! THANKS!
:band:

 

[aratron]

Thanks for the thorough explanation.

To sum it up, I see three very important characteristic that is not desirable in watches.

1. Magnetic property - big no no for the mechanical movement.
2. Less corrosion resistant - although to what extend I don't know
3. Higher machining cost - harder the SS, more expensive to machine it. This characteristic is highly desirable in cutting instrument or high wearing parts like bearings as you mentioned. But not critical given the magnetic and corrosion property.

There are no perfect raw material out there, since there are always some plus and minuses, (cost can be a minus as well) In terms of reps, I really see no point for anything other then the existing 316 variants we already have. The important thing is how the factories use the 316 to its full capability. And for us not to blindly pay extra for seeming meaningless marketing gimmicks.

Thanks for the great post. Certainly sticky worthy!!!

Hi aratron,

Sorry for late at reply, but last days I have been very busy preparing and answering my last thread about “BRUSHING AND POLISHING damaged bezels†(now a Sticky Thread)

Firstly, many thanks for your kind comments.
You are very modest. I see you are not a noob on this matter!
Your questions are very timely and give idea of your knowledge about the SS.
You are asking for some interesting things.
In fact, I thought it was not necessary in this Thread speak about this SS 440 matter, But, by your post, I have seen I was wrong!
Really it is interesting to clarify this question to not have misunderstanding in the future.

Let’s start from the chemical composition:

SS 440
Ni - 0%
Cr- 16-18%
Mo- < 0,75%
Mn- <1%
P- < 0,04%
S- <0,03%
Si- < 1%
C- 0,65-1,20% (depending on grade)
Fe- the rest

As you can see it is a SS without Ni. It is “stainless†just for the Cr content.
Its C content is higher than 316 series.
As usually, this chemical composition gives it especial physical properties.
In comparison with SS 316 series, we can find:

- SS 440 is a SS martensitic type. SS 316 is an austenitic type.
- SS 440 is magnetic. SS 316 are no magnetic.
- SS 440 can be heat treated to become very very hard.
- SS 440 is harder in annealed condition and a lot harder after heat treatment.
- SS 440 annealed is less easy for machining, but after heat treatment it will be almost impossible for machining.
- SS 440 is “white†and shiny. Like a chromed steel by electrolysis.
- SS 440 has less corrosion resistant properties than SS 316 series.

The main application of SS 440 is in cutting instruments, valves seat, rolling elements bearings, surgical instruments, chisels, high grade knifes, scissors, swords, daggers…
SS 440 is a very good and hard Steel and it allows heat hardening treatments, it has a very “white†and shiny colour (like a chromed steel by electrolysis), it is a medium grade SS machining performance and corrosion resistant. It is used for cutting instruments and items which need high hardness.
The 440 is not a SS for high quality watches due to corrosion resistance, machining performance, magnetic properties and colour.
The price of a SS 440 is cheaper than the price of a SS 316 series, due to it has not Ni in its chemical composition.

I hope these explanations answer your questions.

But there is a question without reply:
Since the SS 440 is cheaper than SS 316, why some (bad) dealers say that their replicas are made of SS 440?

I have never definitive reply for this question!! I have some thoughts or ideas but I’m not sure.
- Because people think (and perhaps those dealers) that a higher number means more quality. The higher the number the higher the quality.
- Because people think (and perhaps those dealers) that a higher hardness means better quality.
- Because the bad replicas are made with low grade Steel chromed by electrolysis and the SS440 is similar in colour or, even, with a very low-grade SS cheaper than SS 440. Then, the dealers say that their replicas are made of SS 440 (?), but they are really made of very low grade steel.

Whatever the dealers motives may have been, they are using the name of SS 440 on their profits, and it is clear that there are not replicas made of SS 440.

I hope all is clear now

 

[ALE7575]

thanks for the thorough explanation.

To sum it up, i see three very important characteristic that is not desirable in watches.

1. Magnetic property - big no no for the mechanical movement.
2. Less corrosion resistant - although to what extend i don't know
3. Higher machining cost - harder the ss, more expensive to machine it. This characteristic is highly desirable in cutting instrument or high wearing parts like bearings as you mentioned. But not critical given the magnetic and corrosion property.

There are no perfect raw material out there, since there are always some plus and minuses, (cost can be a minus as well) in terms of reps, i really see no point for anything other then the existing 316 variants we already have. The important thing is how the factories use the 316 to its full capability. And for us not to blindly pay extra for seeming meaningless marketing gimmicks.

Thanks for the great post. Certainly sticky worthy!!!

ok, that is

 

[RWIGWH]

Great info...Nicely done Ale.

 

[ALE7575]

Great info...Nicely done Ale.

Many thanks MrZo for your kind and nice comments
Regards

 

[mbjoer]

I had always been under the impression that the Gen Rolexes tended to be lighter in colour than the reps. As I understood it the main selling point of the 316F was precisely that it should be lighter in colour than the 316L, and hence visually closer to Gen.

Upon reading this thread I notice that you refer to the Gen colour as being more yellowish ( = noble??).
And reading this comparison between the Gen and Rep GMTIIC:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/gen-rolex-gmt-master-ii-86444
I now learn that the Gen is darker than the Rep (which is advertised as 317L). BUT by brushing the rep more and better, it gets the darker shade.

In other words, we have been wrongly concerned about the Reps not being light enough.

That I found interesting.

 

[ALE7575]

I had always been under the impression that the Gen Rolexes tended to be lighter in colour than the reps. As I understood it the main selling point of the 316F was precisely that it should be lighter in colour than the 316L, and hence visually closer to Gen.

Upon reading this thread I notice that you refer to the Gen colour as being more yellowish ( = noble??).
And reading this comparison between the Gen and Rep GMTIIC:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/gen-rolex-gmt-master-ii-86444
I now learn that the Gen is darker than the Rep (which is advertised as 317L). BUT by brushing the rep more and better, it gets the darker shade.

In other words, we have been wrongly concerned about the Reps not being light enough.

That I found interesting.

As I always say, we cannot have preconceived ideas and we cannot be dogmatic.
I'm very happy you have reached these new conclusions.
Anyway, bear in mind that the colour that Watchfaker is talking about in his thread (your link) is due to the brushing degree. The same as I said in this thread:
"the visual results colour-brightness of a metal doesn’t depend only on the real colour, it depends on polishing or brushing degree, on the surface shape of the piece and on the subjective interpretation of the observer."
(Thanks Watchfaker for your pics and your comparison)

 

[mbjoer]

As I always say, we cannot have preconceived ideas and we cannot be dogmatic.
I'm very happy you have reached these new conclusions.
Anyway, bear in mind that the colour that Watchfaker is talking about in his thread (your link) is due to the brushing degree. The same as I said in this thread:
"the visual results colour-brightness of a metal doesn’t depend only on the real colour, it depends on polishing or brushing degree, on the surface shape of the piece and on the subjective interpretation of the observer."
(Thanks Watchfaker for your pics and your comparison)

Quite so.
It was just that I had expected the brushing to make the metal appear lighter. What he says it that it has the opposite effect.

Think I will leave mine alone...