{*PC TEAM*} Three kinds of lies - Panerai caught out once again

[kilowattore]

As someone who was there when Josè was an active part of the homage community and followed his entire career I will just say I don't like him and his behaviour. I don't like the way his articles are unnecessarily biased and unfair, always looking for the next big fraud and trying to make as much noise as possible in order to attract views.

I agree 200% on confronting Panerai Vendome about his marketing and false claims. Panerai doesn't need and doesn't deserve such poor behaviour, besides there is really nothing out of the ordinary in having ETA based movements inside expensive watches. Ultimately market will decide but it's sellers's duty to give customers the elements needed for an informed decision.

I disagree 200% on his view of the Panerai history and hate when he states Panerai were Rolex watches. They weren't, they were Panerai watches made by Rolex just like my old Saab had a GM engine in it and a lot of parts made in the most disparate factories all around the world.
G. Panerai e Figlio was born a small watch reseller who later developed some instruments for the Marina Militare. Due to this relationship the fascist regime placed an order with them for a number of watches and gave them a very short time frame to fulfill it. War was in the air and fascists were no people to joke with . Panerai did not have to needed machining tools at that time so they asked Rolex to help making their idea become reality.
They had the idea of making a wristwatch out of a pocket watch. They had the idea of fitting a radium filled dial inside the watch so it would have been possible to read the time underwater and in the dark. A product bears the brand of whom had the idea to make it, who invented it, not who phisically made it. That is just my opinion of course, I don't want to pass it as the absolute truth like others do.

[KOT1917]

I fully agree with the unapproachable fact of misinformation on the part of panerai. It doesn't have to be that way.

Secondly, it should be noted the general blurring of facts (In particular, manufacture), as on the part of panerai (the example of P.900, mentioned in the article, happened earlier, and for no one it mattered, because there was no resonant article), and other brands.

Thirdly, modern panerai all of their history are the center of discussion of how a certain ETA 1234 can be sold for XYZ $, and despite all the pros and cons, the watch has been sold and is being sold.

In general, when it comes to price, this has always been a sensitive issue, and management has always taken advantage of the high secondary price of many models to drive up the primary prices. The PAM225 is one of the most expensive 7750 models imaginable, and probably one of the most sought after.

From this, personally, I think that for fans of the brand as a whole, the origins of the movement are not so important.

At the same time, PANERAI does everything to expand its sphere of polishing, and sells many models that do not fall into the connoisseurs of connoisseurs. Generally speaking, I believe that most of these chronographs on the P.9200 are about them.
For me, as long as there are serious "manufactory" chrono, for example P.9100 or p.2004 (I call it what the brand calls it), it’s important for someone, or OPXII for ETA connoisseurs, and the difference in price between them is quite significant.

So the subjective value for the consumer is a complex and relative issue that requires a lot of data, and most likely the brand management has an ion.

And those who do not appreciate this particular brand, do not have experience and knowledge in movt., And do not betray their meaning, for the sake of only the stylistic component - this is the target audience that panerai wants to collect, and it seems they succeed.

[PAM_BOY]

As someone who was there when Josè was an active part of the homage community and followed his entire career I will just say I don't like him and his behaviour. I don't like the way his articles are unnecessarily biased and unfair, always looking for the next big fraud and trying to make as much noise as possible in order to attract views.

I agree 200% on confronting Panerai Vendome about his marketing and false claims. Panerai doesn't need and doesn't deserve such poor behaviour, besides there is really nothing out of the ordinary in having ETA based movements inside expensive watches. Ultimately market will decide but it's sellers's duty to give customers the elements needed for an informed decision.

I disagree 200% on his view of the Panerai history and hate when he states Panerai were Rolex watches. They weren't, they were Panerai watches made by Rolex just like my old Saab had a GM engine in it and a lot of parts made in the most disparate factories all around the world.
G. Panerai e Figlio was born a small watch reseller who later developed some instruments for the Marina Militare. Due to this relationship the fascist regime placed an order with them for a number of watches and gave them a very short time frame to fulfill it. War was in the air and fascists were no people to joke with . Panerai did not have to needed machining tools at that time so they asked Rolex to help making their idea become reality.
They had the idea of making a wristwatch out of a pocket watch. They had the idea of fitting a radium filled dial inside the watch so it would have been possible to read the time underwater and in the dark. A product bears the brand of whom had the idea to make it, who invented it, not who phisically made it. That is just my opinion of course, I don't want to pass it as the absolute truth like others do.

Nothing to add

[p0pperini]

How did they expect to get away with this.,.. again

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They’ve been getting away with it for years. And they’ll continue to.

I admire the history of Panerai. And I love the strong visual and functional design ethos.

But I also get the strong impression that the company has been led by some pretty unscrupulous types in its latter years, who have been perfectly happy to cut corners, cheat their customers and lie.

Admittedly, I’ve mainly gained this impression from reading Perezcope articles - although I see no reason to disbelieve what seems to me to be diligent investigative journalism.


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[ALE7575]

Many thanks trailboss99 for the publication of this interesting thread

I totally agree with you that this is a big lie and one of the worst possible.

Effectively, the manufacturers of the movements are companies of the Richemont group to which Panerai belongs and this will be the only escape route that Panerai has to "defend" its position and lies. But this is not enough, because Panerai is deceiving customers who have trusted them, since many of them buy their Panerai with the idea that the movement included is exclusively manufactured and expressly created and manufactured for their Panerai.

As if that were not enough, the quality of some components is below what can be expected even from a standard quality movement. Which is very serious for a supposedly luxury brand.

The name change of the OPXXXIV movement to P.900 was a really strange modification and I would say almost fraudulent, because Panerai had always named its “in-house” movements with a letter "P" in front, while "OP" was reserved for movements bought in the Exterior. I was quite astonished myself and came to think that the P.900 was different from the OPXXXIV, which has obviously been shown not to be the case. As a curious fact, I will say that Panerai has already removed the P.900 caliber from its official website.

The history of the evolution of the PAM1111 caseback display is highly indicative of the level of concealment that PANERAI has been forced to do to divert the public's attention from the actual content inside the watch.

I also agree with you that an important source of Panerai purchases are brand enthusiasts, who will be disappointed or at least discouraged by this situation. But there are also a series of fans of the brand, who as KOT1917 says: "I think that for fans of the brand as a whole, the origins of the movement are not so important"

I consider inadmissible the instructions given to sellers regarding not revealing the true origin of these alleged "in-house" movements. And it's not reliable in a brand that pretends to be it.

Within the Richemont group, it is not only Panerai that lies, since this matter also extends to Cartier, IWC, Piaget, VC ... As I have said before, it is true that almost everything is designed and manufactured within the group, and that will be its final defense if the matter becomes more serious, but what they really make the customer see is that their watch is equipped with a movement created and manufactured exclusively for the model they are buying or going to buy.

The above is serious enough to let it pass, but, according to kilowattore , I totally disagree with the author of the article regarding the idea of degrading and devaluing the history of Panerai or saying that Panerai's only real contribution to the watch industry is the CROWN GUARD. These comments seem very exaggerated and unfair to Panerai IMO in Perezcope article.

I think that this issue can seriously damage Panerai's image and that with these behaviors Panerai can be digging its own grave. But as P..DR..D .D comments, we live in an era of permissiveness, impassivity and defenselessness in the face of the prevailing misinformation, that the truth (or supposedly truth, neither should we believe everything written in the article, although it is well documented) could be forgotten in a few months.

What happened will not only harm the gen market, but the replica market will also be affected along with the prestige of the brand.

Really sad for gen and rep fans.
ALE

[Plaasbaas]

So what I now gather is that Panerai bends the truth on their end and then somebody calls them out, maybe exaggerating
and bending the truth on his end.

Only insiders and experts on the Panerai brand and its history will know and have the means to look either behind the
smokescreen of marketing or behind the derogatory mocking of investigative journalists.

What stays with me at this point is, that I - and I will say that again - have learnt new things on this forum about my favourite
hobby. It is somewhat comforting to learn from more knowledgable people than I am, that Panerai is not a complete fraud
and not just a hommage of Rolex with only the noticable crown guard being their only achievement. I am thankful for those
who have put this in the right perspective like kilowattore and ALE7575 .
Although it IS a great looking crown guard - love it

But I have to admit that once more in life I have been somewhat disillusioned and have lost a part of my almost childlike
and admittedly naive awe and admiration. However these things happen and do not really surprise me - I myself have been
in the marketing business long enough.

But still I willfully refuse to loose my curiosity and open-mindedness completely as I want to keep believing in the general
good and do not want to end up being sceptical and suspicious towards everything and everyone. And as P..DR..D
has pointed out: People either don't care or forget quickly, so do I ...mostly.

And value is in the eye of the beholder - what seems worthless to me might be a treasure for somebody else. But I feel
quite good about all my rep Panerai purchases. Love the design, love the history thats been restored by the above quoted
fellow members AND I feel no remorse about the price I paid. LOVE THIS HOBBY - LOVE RWI, thank you.

[trailboss99]

I agree 200% on confronting Panerai Vendome about his marketing and false claims.

Which to me is the only real issue here, they lied and then tried to cover it up with an opaque (see-thru) caseback. I would also be a lot happier if they had used a higher grade of ETA as, when I buy a 10 to 27k watch although I have no problem with an ETA being in there (they are fine MVTs after all) I do expect a high grade, not a base model. After all, they are buying these internally so cost is not a huge issue and the top grade may be as little as $100 more to Panerai. But the heat of the matter is the lies and deception, in no way is that acceptable.





History, yes he's pushing it pretty hard with his statements and he's wrong IMHO. If he's right then a Tudor is a Rolex as well and a Lexus is a Toyota, a Porsche or a Rolls Royce are simply a Volkswagon and a Winchester lever action and a Browning shotgun are a Miroku, all of which are patently untrue statements.

I love Panerai, I have a gen 112 and over 20 reps but I can not nor will I forgive outright lies. If you don't respect your client base you are a poor excuse for a company and it's time for a change in corporate culture. They need to remember they are not haute horology, they are a design ethos and if it wasn't for a guy who happened n Italy for a movie taking a shine to one of their watches they may well still be a little-known niche maker instead of one of the collected brands on the planet.

[trailboss99]

Morgan buyers know that power comes from a Ford, Alfa Romeo, Triumph, or Rover engine

That, sir, is the point, they are made aware of that fact, Morgan doesn't hide it nor do they use the cheapest version they can buy. The issue here is transparency and not just of the caseback.

[Natas78]

Panerai’s been doing these shenanigans ever since the company was sold to Richemont.
Remember the PAM 318 “Brooklyn Bridge”
Movement scandal?


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[papabear244]

As someone who was there when Josè was an active part of the homage community and followed his entire career I will just say I don't like him and his behaviour. I don't like the way his articles are unnecessarily biased and unfair, always looking for the next big fraud and trying to make as much noise as possible in order to attract views.

I agree 200% on confronting Panerai Vendome about his marketing and false claims. Panerai doesn't need and doesn't deserve such poor behaviour, besides there is really nothing out of the ordinary in having ETA based movements inside expensive watches. Ultimately market will decide but it's sellers's duty to give customers the elements needed for an informed decision.

I disagree 200% on his view of the Panerai history and hate when he states Panerai were Rolex watches. They weren't, they were Panerai watches made by Rolex just like my old Saab had a GM engine in it and a lot of parts made in the most disparate factories all around the world.
G. Panerai e Figlio was born a small watch reseller who later developed some instruments for the Marina Militare. Due to this relationship the fascist regime placed an order with them for a number of watches and gave them a very short time frame to fulfill it. War was in the air and fascists were no people to joke with . Panerai did not have to needed machining tools at that time so they asked Rolex to help making their idea become reality.
They had the idea of making a wristwatch out of a pocket watch. They had the idea of fitting a radium filled dial inside the watch so it would have been possible to read the time underwater and in the dark. A product bears the brand of whom had the idea to make it, who invented it, not who phisically made it. That is just my opinion of course, I don't want to pass it as the absolute truth like others do.

I appreciate Jose’s job of putting up sort of a “Panerai Watch” (pun). Keeping an eye on their movements (another pun) for any malfeasance. Because it does seem like someone up there gets off at seeing their customers getting scammed. You would think that after Bonati, things would be different, sadly it looks like JMP is another psycho.
I do agree he is too harsh regarding the history of Panerai and Rolex. If Rolex is not claiming those watches, what gives?


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[locvs]

Richemont and especially Panerai have a history of this kind of truth-bendings.
It is true, that VW Touareg, Audi Q7, Bentley Bentayga and Lammborhini Urus share a lot of parts, inluding engines. However the engines were developed "in house".
Even if we extend the "in house" term to cover all of Richemont, an ETA movement is in no way developed by Richemont. Made "in house" sure. Bu this type of warering down the term "in house" is going into the same direct as some clothing brands went. Panerai is degrading themselves to a mere luxury fashion brand, rather than a proper watchmaker...

As for the quality of the ETA: words fail me. Cost cutting is a downward spiral, that can ruin you.

[dadog13]

I have a gen 112 and over 20 reps but I can not nor will I forgive outright lies

Since you are not ready to forgive them for those lies, I will be extremely glad if I can take that burden of lies on myself by buying some of those 20 or so Panerai replicas that you have
(It seems to me that we will not experience this scenario but it was worth a try)

I’m sure you don’t want anyone to see you wearing them or to know you have some PANERAI back at home

[PAM_BOY]

Since you are not ready to forgive them for those lies, I will be extremely glad if I can take that burden of lies on myself by buying some of those 20 or so Panerai replicas that you have
(It seems to me that we will not I can take also some of that burden of lies on myself by buying some of your 20 Panerai replicasexperience this scenario but it was worth a try)

I’m sure you don’t want anyone to see you wearing them or to know you have some PANERAI back at home

Oh, I can also take on some of this burden of lies by buying some of his 20 Panerai replicas

[kilowattore]

... Panerai is degrading themselves to a mere luxury fashion brand, rather than a proper watchmaker...

Panerai was never a proper watchmaker. The current shitstorm is the result of Richemont wanting OP to appear like one, probably in order to justify outrageous prices.
I agree with you though, cost cutting might be a downward spiral, especially if combined with increasing prices and weak products.

[trailboss99]

Since you are not ready to forgive them for those lies, I will be extremely glad if I can take that burden of lies on myself by buying some of those 20 or so Panerai replicas that you have

UIm . . . . . . no. :P