Dear Watch Industry,

[GingerBubba]

I'm not bickering btw - I was just trying to help the new chap by pointing out that this thread wasn't flame free. I didn't realise it would be a contentious issue with him tbh! I'll not try and help him again!

 

[DucatiWiz]

Like I said, the demand is already there, you (or even another 10,000 people) not being a watch because they can't get it at the AD doesn't make a difference. They have the waitlists stretching much further than that. If they wanted to capitalize on it, they easily could.



You can't run a company making luxury products like a normal company. Their change in marketing strategy is genius. It didn't take more for them to just limit supply (on all models) and watch people go mental.



If they did that nobody would buy their watches. How do I know? Look back 5-10 years where you could get a discount on steel watches. Subs, GMT's, Daytonas, all available in display windows. If someone wanted a Sub they could just go and buy it, not many did. Today everybody wants a sub, they can't get one unless they buy another watch first. Bingo bango, they just sold 2 watches instead of one. People are lining up to do this now, they never did that before.

You can rest assured that Rolex is happy with all the grey market dealers pushing up the market-value of their models. Anyone thinking Rolex is trying to stop them is dead wrong. Why do you think they changed the warranty cards not to include the customers name anymore. All to support grey market trade.

Yeah, still don't agree I'm afraid. Rolex are making efforts to stop flippers, by withholding guarantee cards on new watches for at least a year, so unless that's a double-bluff just to play lip-service to the media, you're wrong to think they aren't trying to stop it. But again, it's irrelevant to my dislike of them. By your own argument, they could make more watches if they wanted to. I understand them protecting their RRP, but they could shorten the wait lists and ensure there was a fair and transparent way to get a real place on one without devaluing their products to below retail or risk forcing a discount. If there was a 6 month wait for example, people would still be unable to get a RRP discount, but a 5 year wait for a GMT (currently quoted by all the WOS brands) is just ludicrous. The bottom line is, they are pissing off customers; I'm one and so is the OP. It's the fact that they choose not care, for whatever reason, is what I think presents a crappy attitude. They are of course quite entitled to do whatever they want, as I am to hold my low opinion of them and take some pleasure in the fact that their strategy is creating a new market for ever higher quality reps. There was a time when people wouldn't have dreamed of paying £500+ for a rep, even high quality one, but now they are, for all the reasons above.

 

[DucatiWiz]

Just FYI, from a Gen forum I belong to:

 

[nipe]

Yeah, still don't agree I'm afraid. Rolex are making efforts to stop flippers, by withholding guarantee cards on new watches for at least a year, so unless that's a double-bluff just to play lip-service to the media, you're wrong to think they aren't trying to stop it. But again, it's irrelevant to my dislike of them. By your own argument, they could make more watches if they wanted to. I understand them protecting their RRP, but they could shorten the wait lists and ensure there was a fair and transparent way to get a real place on one without devaluing their products to below retail or risk forcing a discount. If there was a 6 month wait for example, people would still be unable to get a RRP discount, but a 5 year wait for a GMT (currently quoted by all the WOS brands) is just ludicrous. The bottom line is, they are pissing off customers; I'm one and so is the OP. It's the fact that they choose not care, for whatever reason, is what I think presents a crappy attitude. They are of course quite entitled to do whatever they want, as I am to hold my low opinion of them and take some pleasure in the fact that their strategy is creating a new market for ever higher quality reps. There was a time when people wouldn't have dreamed of paying £500+ for a rep, even high quality one, but now they are, for all the reasons above.

Rolex isn't withholding any warranty-cards, lol. Where are you getting your information? Fox news?

Not even going to comment on anything else as it's just paragraphs of crying over not having VIP status so you can buy retail at an AD. If you want a hot model, buy it grey. If it's too expensive that's just how it is. Make more money or look at other brands. From a business perspective Rolex is doing EXACTLY what they need to be doing with their strategy.

 

[nipe]

Just FYI, from a Gen forum I belong to:

I hope you don't belive this obviously fake "memo" to be true, do you?

 

[DucatiWiz]

I know it to be true, because it was posted by a well respected member on a gen forum. Also, if you spent as much time as I do on gen forums, you'd know it to be true too because there are literally THOUSANDS of threads on it. Like this one: https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...tee-card/page1

And I also know that, despite the ridicule, the OP was right about manufacturers visiting here. How? Because if you go to YouTube and look at any number of gen/rep comparison videos made by gen dealers, ones I know go to manufacture events (because in some instances I've met them there) they talk about things like customised frankinwatches. Where do you think they got that info from?

You think the manufacturers are happy? They're not. I went to buy a gen GMT, was sneered at and told 5 years but you'll never get to the top of the list, so I researched other models and ended up buying this beautiful GS GMT instead (and very glad I did) a model I wouldn't have even known about were it not for their strategy. Now, rather than buying their products, there are two people on this thread who came here directly due to the manufacturers strategy and in my case, not only helped fund a community dedicated to promoting an industry they are terrified of, but actually put money into that industry by buying a rep using the information I found here. You seriously think they are happy about that? Well let's see how happy they are when word spreads and you see thousands more of their customers who, like us, find themselves here, funding ever more exact copies of their products.

 

[nipe]

I know it to be true, because it was posted by a well respected member on a gen forum. Also, if you spent as much time as I do on gen forums, you'd know it to be true too because there are literally THOUSANDS of threads on it. Like this one: https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...tee-card/page1

And I also know that, despite the ridicule, the OP was right about manufacturers visiting here. How? Because if you go to YouTube and look at any number of gen/rep comparison videos made by gen dealers, ones I know go to manufacture events (because in some instances I've met them there) they talk about things like customised frankinwatches. Where do you think they got that info from?

You think the manufacturers are happy? They're not. I went to buy a gen GMT, was sneered at and told 5 years but you'll never get to the top of the list, so I researched other models and ended up buying this beautiful GS GMT instead (and very glad I did) a model I wouldn't have even known about were it not for their strategy. Now, rather than buying their products, there are two people on this thread who came here directly due to the manufacturers strategy and in my case, not only helped fund a community dedicated to promoting an industry they are terrified of, but actually put money into that industry by buying a rep using the information I found here. You seriously think they are happy about that? Well let's see how happy they are when word spreads and you see thousands more of their customers who, like us, find themselves here, funding ever more exact copes of their products.

There's a big difference in AD's withholding warranty-cards and "Rolex" withholding them - they aren't the same thing you know. In any case, I have never ever been told a warranty card would be withheld from me, never has it ever been or even be been indicated.

I can see a scenario where the AD wants to test his customer, if believed to be a flipper, and tells him they will keep the card for xx period. Anyone that would have a problem with that clearly wouldn't be eligible for receiving the watch in the first place, as the possibility of the watch being flipped certainly would be higher. (We're talking about hot models here only, Daytonas, GMTs etc)

Again, that memo, no matter where it originated is pure fake news, bad grammar, spelling, phrasing, even the technical layout of the supposed print/ss is as fake as my x gf's tits. With 99% probability it originated from an edgy teenager that wanted some attention.

Well let's see how happy they are when word spreads and you see thousands more of their customers who, like us, find themselves here, funding ever more exact copes of their products.

Yeah the fake industry is something brand new I hope it won't catch them by surprise.

 

[nipe]

And I also know that, despite the ridicule, the OP was right about manufacturers visiting here. How? Because if you go to YouTube and look at any number of gen/rep comparison videos made by gen dealers, ones I know go to manufacture events (because in some instances I've met them there) they talk about things like customised frankinwatches. Where do you think they got that info from?

Oooohh yes, the term frankenwatch originated from replica forums yeees yes I remember it as it was yesterday. It certainly didn't sprout from the vintage collectors as a way to describe "unoriginal" watches because they were made up from aftermarket/unoriginal parts.

 

[YellowFin]

Rolex isn't withholding any warranty-cards, lol. Where are you getting your information? Fox news?

Confirmed by several buyers on gen forums who already received their 1266xx watches. Some ADs do it, some don't.

 

[nipe]

Confirmed by several buyers on gen forums who already received their 1266xx watches. Some ADs do it, some don't.

So again, not Rolex holding them back but the AD's. (edit: SOME .. Ad's)

 

[DucatiWiz]

There's a big difference in AD's withholding warranty-cards and "Rolex" withholding them - they aren't the same thing you know. In any case, I have never ever been told a warranty card would be withheld from me, never has it ever been or even be been indicated.

Forgive me but your anecdotal personal experience doesn't really hold the same weight in evidence as the thousands of threads there are on the subject all over the gen watch forums and even on some other types of forums (like supercar ones) where watches are often mentioned. I don't need to link them all to prove the point, just have a Google and you'll see. The point about AD/Man is moot, obviously I was talking about the ADs because Rolex doesn't sell direct - what's your point?

I can see a scenario where the AD wants to test his customer, if believed to be a flipper, and tells him they will keep the card for xx period. Anyone that would have a problem with that clearly wouldn't be eligible for receiving the watch in the first place, as the possibility of the watch being flipped certainly would be higher. (We're talking about hot models here only, Daytonas, GMTs etc)

But wait, weren't you just arguing that they were actively encouraging the grey market and that they never hold warranty cards?

Again, that memo, no matter where it originated is pure fake news, bad grammar, spelling, phrasing, even the technical layout of the supposed print/ss is as fake as my x gf's tits. With 99% probability it originated from an edgy teenager that wanted some attention.

Ok, I concede that I do not have the original for forensic examination, but it's pretty irrelevant in any case, contrary to your claims, anyone who can work Google can see that the ADs are withholding warranty cards and are concerned about the grey market with or without that as evidence.

Yeah the fake industry is something brand new I hope it won't catch them by surprise.

I can assure (and provide plenty of links in addition to the watchfinder video) that proves this new level of quality and cloned movements has taken them totally by surprise. Again, if you followed the gen industry, you'd know that, because it's discussed at length across all boards.

 

[DucatiWiz]

Oooohh yes, the term frankenwatch originated from replica forums yeees yes I remember it as it was yesterday. It certainly didn't sprout from the vintage collectors as a way to describe "unoriginal" watches because they were made up from aftermarket/unoriginal parts.

Good grief, it doesn't matter if they use the term "frankinwatch" or not, the point is that they know there are communities like this where some people swap in genuine parts so that they are almost impossible to distinguish from their product. This forum was easy enough for me to find when I decided to buy a rep, so if you think they don't have people who have found it and are keeping an eye on the latest developments, I'm afraid I think it's you who are being naive not the OP.

 

[nipe]

But wait, weren't you just arguing that they were actively encouraging the grey market and that they never hold warranty cards?

Again, I was talking about Rolex, not AD's. There's a big difference.

If you had a luxury brand (Rolex) and your products were being sold (Let's say year 2015) UNDER retail in the second hand market. Does that show a good value of your product? No, right? Would you be happy with that situation? No of course not.

Now if your products suddenly starts selling ABOVE retail, is that a bad thing for your brand? Would you want to stop that in any way possible? Of course not, it's a GREAT thing for a luxury brand - actually it's the ideal scenario any luxury brand could ever dream of.

Naturally you can't publicly say that, you have to portray that it's a bad thing for your company and customers, but really you couldn't be happier.

But wait, weren't you just arguing that they were actively encouraging the grey market and that they never hold warranty cards?

What I said was ROLEX never held back the cards.

Ok, I concede that I do not have the original for forensic examination, but it's pretty irrelevant in any case, contrary to your claims, anyone who can work Google can see that the ADs are withholding warranty cards and are concerned about the grey market with or without that as evidence.

It's not irrelevant. In fact it's very relevant as it just proves you take anything thrown at you and blindly accept it as a fact. You keep saying "AD's".. No, no and no. SOME AD'S might, to SOME customers. I already said that. I know that my AD certainly does not, not to me or to any of their other customers.

Here's a quest for you and you'll love this one. Go on C24 and show me a SINGLE Daytona, GMT or Submariner that is being sold without a warranty card.. I mean, according to you it's rolex policy, so surely no watch leaves Geneva with a warranty card.

 

[nipe]

Good grief, it doesn't matter if they use the term "frankinwatch" or not, the point is that they know there are communities like this where some people swap in genuine parts so that they are almost impossible to distinguish from their product. This forum was easy enough for me to find when I decided to buy a rep, so if you think they don't have people who have found it and are keeping an eye on the latest developments, I'm afraid I think it's you who are being naive not the OP.

I never said they didn't know about forums like these, but they certainly don't care in the extend that you think. The few modders we have on this forum, enjoying their hobby, making franken watches is not a concern to "the watch manufacturers". Franken watches are a concern to collectors and the second hand market. Not to Rolex SA.

 

[nipe]

The issue AD's have with 'flippers' is that they sold them a watch (of which they only received limited stock per year), that could have gone to another one of their valued customers instead.

Besides that there's the whole other scenario of grey dealers helping AD's getting rid of unwanted stock and then getting hot pieces as favors back.

We could also talk about the thousands of fake VIPs that AD's think are good loyal customers, but actually just sell back most purchases to greys for increasing their own VIP status.

 

[DucatiWiz]

Again, I was talking about Rolex, not AD's. There's a big difference.

Well obviously, but we all know that Rolex don't sell direct so it can only be the AD's who withhold guarantee cards, but what's your point? They are still being withheld.

If you had a luxury brand (Rolex) and your products were being sold (Let's say year 2015) UNDER retail in the second hand market. Does that show a good value of your product? No, right? Would you be happy with that situation? No of course not.

Now if your products suddenly starts selling ABOVE retail, is that a bad thing for your brand? Would you want to stop that in any way possible? Of course not, it's a GREAT thing for a luxury brand - actually it's the ideal scenario any luxury brand could ever dream of.

Naturally you can't publicly say that, you have to portray that it's a bad thing for your company and customers, but really you couldn't be happier.

But we're now just covering the same ground again which is a waste of time. As I already said, you can reduce the wait lists to 6 months and still protect your RRP whilst allowing your customers to place a deposit get on a genuine list (which you can't do now). And if you did that, you wouldn't be driving them away to other brands and fuelling the replica industry as they clearly are now (evidenced by at least 2 people on this thread).

What I said was ROLEX never held back the cards.

Again, seriously? We KNOW THAT! How could they? They don't deal with the public.

It's not irrelevant. In fact it's very relevant as it just proves you take anything thrown at you and blindly accept it as a fact. You keep saying "AD's".. No, no and no. SOME AD'S might, to SOME customers. I already said that. I know that my AD certainly does not, not to me or to any of their other customers.

Here's a quest for you and you'll love this one. Go on C24 and show me a SINGLE Daytona, GMT or Submariner that is being sold without a warranty card.. I mean, according to you it's Rolex policy, so surely no watch leaves Geneva with a warranty card.

You think there aren't subs on C24 without any papers? Really? And anyway, I never said it happens ALL the time, only that it happens. Happening at all is evidence that they are trying to discourage flippers, something that you said they were trying to encourage. What you're doing is being pedantic about minor irrelevant points to distract from the main point that you said Rolex were encouraging a grey market and that warranty cards aren't being withheld, despite the wealth of evidence all over the net that proved beyond doubt that you're wrong and that the practice is widespread.

Anyway, I've been on (and running) forums long enough to know that when you start repeating yourself more than twice, the conversation is going to go downhill rapidly until someone mentions Hitler (Godwin's law) so I'll leave this discussion now and let you have the last word that I already know you desperately need.

 

[nipe]

Well obviously, but we all know that Rolex don't sell direct so it can only be the AD's who withhold guarantee cards, but what's your point? They are still being withheld.

Yes, we both know that Rolex don't sell directly. This whole discussion originated in you saying "Rolex" (when you probably meant AD). I'm a very literal person, if someone says hat but means cap, I will respond to hat.

Anyway, I've been on (and running) forums long enough to know that when you start repeating yourself more than twice, the conversation is going to go downhill rapidly until someone mentions Hitler (Godwin's law) so I'll leave this discussion now and let you have the last word that I already know you desperately need.

The only reason why I have been repeating myself is that you're cherry-picking what to reply on. Leaving my valid points completely out of the discussion.

What you're doing is being pedantic about minor irrelevant points to distract from the main point that you said Rolex were encouraging a grey market and that warranty cards aren't being withheld, despite the wealth of evidence all over the net that proved beyond doubt that you're wrong and that the practice is widespread

It's funny that you bring that up, when the evidence points to cards NOT being withheld far outweighs the examples you can find of them being held back. Again I will point to the thousands of hot models available from grey dealers in complete sets (including warranty card of course).

Rolex are making efforts to stop flippers, by withholding guarantee cards on new watches for at least a year, so unless that's a double-bluff just to play lip-service to the media, you're wrong to think they aren't trying to stop it.

That's what you said. That's what I reacted to, it's false statement. If you had said "Some AD's have even been withholding warranty cards to some customers", then I wouldn't have had a problem with that statement to begin with. All I've been doing is prove that statement wrong.

You think there aren't subs on C24 without any papers?

Sorry, that's not what I meant, that was poorly phrased. I meant for you to go on C24 and look for yourself how many (NEW 2020) Daytonas, GMT's, Subs etc. that are being sold WITH a warranty card. Again to prove my initial point of you being wrong. I'm running back and forth while cooking, that msg was sent off a bit too fast, my bad.

You are absolutely right though, the discussion lost its flair. A shame that you couldn't get the Rolex you wanted, but that's how the game has changed. Either you choose to play along, go grey or find another brand. Enjoy the GS, I've been considering an sbgw231 myself. If you really want something crazy, and I see you can wear larger watches, consider the Zenith Defy 21 - insane Chrono at the price, plus you can get it below retail on the grey market. (Less than an unobtainable Rolex). If I had wrists like yours I'd get one of those. Showstopper.

 

[miami_YG]

I know it to be true, because it was posted by a well respected member on a gen forum. Also, if you spent as much time as I do on gen forums, you'd know it to be true too because there are literally THOUSANDS of threads on it. Like this one: https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...tee-card/page1

And I also know that, despite the ridicule, the OP was right about manufacturers visiting here. How? Because if you go to YouTube and look at any number of gen/rep comparison videos made by gen dealers, ones I know go to manufacture events (because in some instances I've met them there) they talk about things like customised frankinwatches. Where do you think they got that info from?

You think the manufacturers are happy? They're not. I went to buy a gen GMT, was sneered at and told 5 years but you'll never get to the top of the list, so I researched other models and ended up buying this beautiful GS GMT instead (and very glad I did) a model I wouldn't have even known about were it not for their strategy. Now, rather than buying their products, there are two people on this thread who came here directly due to the manufacturers strategy and in my case, not only helped fund a community dedicated to promoting an industry they are terrified of, but actually put money into that industry by buying a rep using the information I found here. You seriously think they are happy about that? Well let's see how happy they are when word spreads and you see thousands more of their customers who, like us, find themselves here, funding ever more exact copies of their products.

Is that the limited edition? Hell yeah! I got sick of Rolex all together at this point and just got an Omega 300m (still not off the Swiss train yet).

This website/hobby got me into watches in general by making them accessible--beyond the "I made it" starter luxury watches. I've owned real Rolexes too and loved them (eventually flipped). Unless you are hardcore passionate for the brand though, or are a speculator, it and other brands pushing sport steel models without exciting technology or design innovation aren't worth it anymore. For those brands, for me, it's rep/franken or nothing for me now. I don't have the money to tie up $20k of my net work on my wrist.