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BP GMT 16710 Power Reserve problem

bc1221

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KJ2020 gives good advice as usual.

As far as the “warranty” is concerned, I wouldn’t sweat it, if I was you. This is pretty much imaginary anyway, that is, you will only have warranty unless you need it. I don’t want to badmouth dealers, but since PC is not a TD here, it is perhaps allowable to write about our own experiences. YMMV, of course, and I am sure there are some folks who had really good experiences with Josh, and all the power to them. I am just writing about my own experiences and am not suggesting anyone should follow my example.

I used to buy a lot from Joshua in my early days and now I don’t any more. There are several reasons for this state of affairs, one is that on one occasion he charged me for an A2836, but sent me a watch with a Z2 instead, which became apparent when it broke a fortnight after receiving it and was impossible to fix, because you cannot get spare parts for a Z2. When contacted about the issue, and the fact that it was misrepresented, Josh got quite shirty with me and suggested that I was overstepping my remit for opening the watch up, and that the warranty was thus void. I was not looking for any kind of warranty, so I was not bothered about not getting it. I was not looking for help at all, I just wanted to let him know that he sold me the wrong movement, thinking I was gullible enough not to notice, but that I eventually did notice. Mine was more or less an email saying “I know what you did dude, you are either crooked or you have been taken too, but neither of these things flatter you”. His response irked me, because the fact that me checking whether someone was as good as their word and finding they weren’t, somehow made me the issue because I checked, and not the guy for scamming me. It happens, I moved on, no big deal.

I stopped buying from Joshua after the next watch (with GMT complication) did not completely work (the GMT hand was consistently one hour per day slow). I opened it up, with the aim of replacing the movement, which this time around was an A2386 as advertised, but the dial was glued on, feet removed. This is just shabby. I contacted Joshua and again had a longish exchange in which it was suggested I am setting the watch wrong and am just too stupid to understand how normal it is for a GMT hand to show it is 3AM for two hours every day. The watch was not one that I desperately wanted - it was the third replacement after the first two I wanted suddenly were not available any more after I paid for them and were confirmed to be available, by Josh. He did not say they were in stock. If he said that, I wouldn’t have believed it anyway. I know they are never in stock, whatever they tell me. So I was kinda meh about the watch from the start, but still, it should work. I was grudgingly offered an unspecified discount for the next watch I would buy from PC, but I felt at that time that it would be just throwing good money after bad. There are plenty of dealers who do better due diligence than that, so my money goes to them.

The third reason I stopped is more political I suppose. If I recall correctly Josh and Andrew and some other folks colluded in this or that. That got them removed from the TD list here. There are old threads still around if anyone is interested, feel free to read more, and correct me if I am wrong. I am aware that I might be close to one of the topics that are, as if by total coincidence, never mentioned on this and some other forums, so I will be stopping here. Mods, if I said too much, please feel free to censor me, but I would prefer not to be banned , and I meant no disrespect.


I’ve had similar experiences with Joshua. Bought one from him when I first started getting in to reps. I will spare you the details but he basically accused me of scamming him. Not sure why.

As for this watch, I don’t think it’s a mainspring problem since he is saying that it runs sometimes and sometimes it doesn’t. Then he says he can hear something moving inside the watch. If I were you, I would try removing the movement first and see if there’s something floating inside there. This could be anything from a random screw or a movement tab just floating around (it could be from anywhere. Not just this watch). I’ve seen this happen to others. The hacking yoke could be loose and floating around the balance wheel...etc. if something is loose in the movement, odds are; something is floating inside getting stuck in the gears or the balance wheel.

You may as well give it a try since he’s charging you $90 bucks for what’s basically a $20 movement. At the least, you’ll learn something when you try to find the problem and can’t get it fixed yourself.

Good luck.



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KJ2020

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I re-read all the OP's entries and did not see where he said sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. What I understood is it works for a short while and then it stops, indicating no power.

However it certainly would be useful to completely eliminate the possibility of a loose object floating around in the movement. I don't see any screws missing or loose objects in the pics. Something useful to try would be open the back, press down gently on the rotor to prevent it from moving and shake and turn the watch around to listen for strange noises. There should not be any, we need to eliminate the rotor as the source of the noises heard inside the movement.

If there is still something rattling around with the rotor eliminated as the cause, the movement could be removed from the case and rotated and shaken to see if something falls out. The hands and dial could be removed to dig deeper since this has to be done anyway. The dateplate and the gears and springs underneath can be viewed for integrity. This would most likely not reveal a loose part large enough to make noise as there isn't room here to contain one that can move around freely.

Next logical step would be remove the rotor which won't reveal anything new then you are faced with removing the barrel bridge. If that is taken off, any chance of getting the movement back together and running again has just dropped dramatically. I took the one in my pic apart just to show where the mainspring is. Just for fun I spent 20 minutes or so trying to put it back together without success. Ultra fiddly is a good description indeed. The movement wasn't working so it doesn't matter. But I doubt I will try to fix it, it's not worth the aggravation.

So yes I think it's worth another deeper look into whether or not a loose piece can be dislodged. But I would stop short of removing the barrel bridge.

If this were mine I would just source a new DG3804 ICHS and a set of ICHS hands for a clean easy $55 install. Use the same dial and movement spacer. You could also use a 2836 ICHS movement and hands as DavidModic suggested and clip/re-glue dial feet and use the same dial.
 
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DavidModic

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DavidModic
....
Regarding the low quality of 2813s, twice I have broken off the tip of the center wheel pinion in the seconds hand post sleeve when simply removing the hands on a DG. This usually renders both parts unusable. The DG seconds hand hole is only .17mm which is crazy small and it and the pinion are quite fragile.

I was able to fit a 2836 post sleeve onto one DG hand so I could re-use the hand in a 2836. I drilled out the hand hole a little and pressed and glued the larger post sleeve onto the hand. Tiniest drop of glue, wiped clean after drying then paint touch up with a single bristle brush. The 2836 hand was bent so two bad hands became one usable one.
...
KJ2020
This is amazing work. I am not sure whether everyone realises how difficult this is to do. It is really freaking hard. Power to you KJ.
 

mrsullivan

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Something useful to try would be open the back, press down gently on the rotor to prevent it from moving and shake and turn the watch around to listen for strange noises. There should not be any, we need to eliminate the rotor as the source of the noises heard inside the movement.

That I did, exactly as you just wrote. Holding the rotor and flipping the watch upside-down I can hear "a bit" moving in.

Great reading here anyway, these technical points comment are helpfull to understand how all this works, although I'll never be able to dig into this myself trying to repair it.

But here is what I'll do : once I get the new 2813 and it's properly placed in the watch, I'll patiently open the old f*cked up one just to get a clue on what happened.

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DavidModic

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...
But here is what I'll do : once I get the new 2813 and it's properly placed in the watch, I'll patiently open the old f*cked up one just to get a clue on what happened.
TFTFY
...once you will get the new 2813 GMT in the case, with hands, dial and stem in place and confirmed working, you will do as you say. :)
 

bc1221

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That I did, exactly as you just wrote. Holding the rotor and flipping the watch upside-down I can hear "a bit" moving in.

Great reading here anyway, these technical points comment are helpfull to understand how all this works, although I'll never be able to dig into this myself trying to repair it.

But here is what I'll do : once I get the new 2813 and it's properly placed in the watch, I'll patiently open the old f*cked up one just to get a clue on what happened.

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If you hear something rattling around in there, I would remove the rotor and shake it for a while to see if anything falls out. Worth a shot since you have another coming anyway.


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bc1221

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Hello everyone,

I recently got a BP 16710 GMT Pepsi with A2813 CHS "Lite" (dont' really know why they call it "Lite").

When I received it I instantly knew something was wrong. The watch builds no PR (stops after + or - 30 mn without moving), and when I flip the watch upside down I can hear smoething moving inside.

Beside that the watch actually keeps great time (as long as it moves), I set time and date by time setting position only (did'nt play with GMT settings), and date flips perfectly.

I sent a mail to my dealer (Perfect Clones, not TD here) and Joshua was very responsive. He told me to open the caseback and check if a piece was visually in the way, detached or loose.

I must say that I never did this, but I'm pretty interested in getting inside the technical side so I got a rubber ball and opened the caseback today.
Nothing seems wrong at 1rst sight : everything seems in place, the rotor turns ok, and the different wheels seem to work ok from outside. But still I hear some parts moving loose from inside the movement.

Anyone has a clue?

I just mailed Joshua to keep him informed, but I would appreciate advice from the forum members.

Thank you all.
ff916d7b10d4002ba6926853c2b9bf81.jpg
8f36e717be6c4ba30f176184f96adccf.jpg


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I think I found your problem... in your pics the driving wheel (the red one) has quite a few missing teeth. That’s prob what’s rattling around and that’s prob what’s causing your mainspring to not charge.




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mrsullivan

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I received the new A2813 CHS movement from Joshua today, so time to replace the old cramped one has arrived.

I'll have to swap hands and dial from the old one, and as I'm fairly new to this (maybe some of you read my "Beginner's Handbook" thread on the main discussion section on RWI), i might need some help.

If any of the technical masters are around, feel free to share advices here before I dig into this "transplant surgery".

I'll document the swapping of course, hope it will give some life back to this beautiful BP.

Cheers

63877edede410580803f9d874098a0f5.jpg


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KJ2020

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Be VERY gentle removing the second hand. I posted about breaking off the tip of the center wheel a couple times. You won't be able to get it out to reuse the hand.

Just swap the whole old DW and see if the numbers line up OK. If not you'll have to remove and reglue the DWO.

Remove and replace the stem with it in the winding position. You can keep the release button pressed for both actions.

Wear latex gloves or finger cots, never touch the dial, hands, or movement parts with fingers. Practice removing and pressing the junk hands on the new movement.

NEVER remove the bridge under the rotor on a DG movement you plan to reuse. They are a nightmare to reinstall.
 
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Thefakemasterfanclub

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Be VERY gentle removing the second hand. I posted about breaking off the tip of the center wheel a couple times. You won't be able to get it out to reuse the hand.

Boy that has happened to me 1 too many times..


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mrsullivan

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Be VERY gentle removing the second hand. I posted about breaking off the tip of the center wheel a couple times. You won't be able to get it out to reuse the hand.

Just swap the whole old DW and see if the numbers line up OK. If not you'll have to remove and reglue the DWO.

Remove and replace the stem with it in the winding position. You can keep the release button pressed for both actions.

Wear latex gloves or finger cots, never touch the dial, hands, or movement parts with fingers. Practice removing and pressing the junk hands on the new movement.

NEVER remove the bridge under the rotor on a DG movement you plan to reuse. They are a nightmare to reinstall.

Clean and straight instructions, thank you.

So when removing the second hand, should I do it hand by hand or can I gently remove the whole stack at once?

If I have to reglue the DW overlay, is a typical Loctite type of glue ok?

I'm used to wear nitrile gloves at all times anyway so this part should be ok.

Hell this gets exciting!

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KJ2020

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Clean and straight instructions, thank you.

So when removing the second hand, should I do it hand by hand or can I gently remove the whole stack at once?

If I have to reglue to DW overlay, is a typical Loctite type of glue ok?

I'm used to wear nitrile gloves at all times anyway so this part should be ok.

Hell this gets exciting!

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What kind of hands remover do you have? If it's a presto grabber you could try just the second hand. I would cut some very thin strips of polishing tape or shipping tape and tape up the presto center post and the grabber jaws. You can use manicureing scissors to trim off all excess tape so very little is left except to coat against metal on metal contact. Also put a dial protector above the minute hand if doing this.

If your tool is the levers, you're probably better off taking the whole stack. Take care to lift perfectly straight UP, as any angle off can scratch the hands together.

Let's wait and see about the DW
 
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bc1221

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Clean and straight instructions, thank you.

So when removing the second hand, should I do it hand by hand or can I gently remove the whole stack at once?

If I have to reglue to DW overlay, is a typical Loctite type of glue ok?

I'm used to wear nitrile gloves at all times anyway so this part should be ok.

Hell this gets exciting!

Envoyé de mon ELE-L29 en utilisant Tapatalk

If you have to re-attach the overlay, use hypo cement. It’s not strong enough to have a vapor residue and takes some time to cure completely. You just have to be very patient when aligning. Do not push the dial all the way down until you are sure that all dates are aligned and cured. I say this because I’ve had all the dates aligned and pushed back he dial all the way down and started flipping through the dates to make sure. This is where it goes wrong. The overlay starts slipping from not being cured and moving through a very tight space. I usually just keep the dial feet holders in and place the dial directly over it but not all the way down until it’s completely cured. This also means that you shouldn’t attach the hands after you did multiple run throughs of all of the dates. Trust me on this one. I’ve done this so many times only to reassemble everything and the dates slightly move from flipping through them again and again.

Hypo-cement is pretty strong once it cures but easy to remove with pretty much anything. Just use a few drops and spread it with a small screwdriver or something. Just make sure it only goes on the datewheel. If it goes wrong, easy to remove and start over.

Definitely take KJ’s advice on the the pinions. 2813s seem to have paper thin second hand pinions. Make sure it comes off straight up and sets straight down and be very gentle. I’ve never had issues removing the whole stack or removing them at all. It’s just seating them that always broke for me.

Good luck man.


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mrsullivan

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KJ2020 I only have the "presto" hands remover right now. I ordered levers but they should take about 2 weeks to get in. I'll strip the watch down and see how I feel with the presto. If I don't feel confortable I'll wait till I get the levers.

bc1221 I take your advice regarding cement, thank you.

I'll start working the movement swap early next week and let you know here how it goes.
Thank you all for the good care and advices.

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Oascom

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I just read about hypo cement use as dwo glue. I don't recommend that anymore. It dry quickly. When it dries you can still adjust the dwo but it will come back to "oryginal position" it's good glue if you know exactly where to place dwo and you have it aligned in like 30 seconds... Of course you can always lift the dwo and put more hypo cement as this is very easy glue to work with but alternative to this is 15 minutes epoxy. You have plenty of time testing dwo with the dial and you can adjust as many times as you need. And when it cures it stays in place. It won't move or shift and if you put only few drops you still can remove dwo if you need .

That's of course my personal observation and what I use. I have better success with it.

Good luck
 

KJ2020

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I just read about hypo cement use as dwo glue. I don't recommend that anymore. It dry quickly. When it dries you can still adjust the dwo but it will come back to "oryginal position" it's good glue if you know exactly where to place dwo and you have it aligned in like 30 seconds... Of course you can always lift the dwo and put more hypo cement as this is very easy glue to work with but alternative to this is 15 minutes epoxy. You have plenty of time testing dwo with the dial and you can adjust as many times as you need. And when it cures it stays in place. It won't move or shift and if you put only few drops you still can remove dwo if you need .

That's of course my personal observation and what I use. I have better success with it.

Good luck

Agree with this, I now use Bob Smith's (BSI) 30 min epoxy.
 
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mrsullivan

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Ok guys, bad news : I ruined it.

Actually everything went OK (DWO nicely fixed with epoxy, dial swap ok) until I had to replace the hands...

At 1rst try the hour hand was not aligned to 12 marker so I removed it and scratched the dial a bit, grrrrrr.

2nd try, the hour/GMT/minute hands are placed but the height of the stack wasn't good. Took them out. GRRRRRR

3rd try, I still could'nt get the GMT hand at a proper height, it was too high above the hour hand. So I tried to push harder and somehow the movement suddenly moved inside the plastic holder and got stuck in it at an angle. Impossible to take it out by hand, so I tried to use a screwdriver's tip to unlock it : screwdriver ripped and caught the dial, whose 6 o'clock foot bent, and twisted the hour hand...

So this is when my hand took the whole thing to smash it on the wall!
So no more movement, hands nor dial. This cramped Pepsi is gone.

It's a pity cause I loved this BP and it ended up never working. I think I'll buy another one though.

At least there is a lesson from that : when something goes wrong with horology, leave it. Take a few minutes to breath, do something else and get back to it later. And never, ever, loose your temper when working on a watch!

Thank you all for the advices on this thread, I learned a lot but my lack of experience got this beyond my actual skills (and my nerves) , next time will be better.

The whole thing cost me a watch + a new movement + shippings, I don't know if I can get something back from it.
I want to sell the case + bracelet + crown stem and ruined dial for the markers, any idea how much they're worth?

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Hinclimincli

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Now breathe, put everything in a box, and relax. Give it a few days.
Do you know how many movements I have ruined before getting a keyless works properly reset in place? Well, more than I would like to, lol!

Surely KJ2020oascom DavidModic and many others have done so. And the good news is that this is how you learn mate, don’t worry!

You have just spent a little bit of money and you have experienced it by yourself, so hopefully next time you are a bit more aware of what to expect. We all learn from our mistakes.

What would I do? Go to eBay. Order two (or three) cheap GMT movements. DO NOT THROW ANYTHING INTO THE BIN! (This is VERY important! In this hobby spare parts are actually very scarce and sometimes impossible to find, so being a bit like a scavenger pays off in the long run).

After that, call your friends and go for a beer. Tomorrow will be another day! I can assure you that by the time those new GMT movements you ordered from eBay are about to reach your mailbox you will be excited again and ready for the challenge. This is what makes this such a great hobby!

Last but not least:

​​​​​​​
 
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