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Keyless is driving me insane!!

bc1221

Put Some Respect On My Name
30/4/14
4,079
453
83
I have reset keyless works quite a few times in the past. From the dial side as well as the gear train side but this 2836 is driving me insane.

I can get it to set and everything engages fine. I can get it in date set and hand set but there always seem to be a little bit of up and down play on the stem.

I have a brand new setting lever and a keyless cover spring or whatever the cover portion is called. Even with that, it still has some play. The little bit of play makes it so that the stem can come out randomly. Randomly meaning, I get damn near everything assembled and then pop. Stem is out again. I can re insert the stem some times but it will not engage or it gets stuck in date set.

The only way for this stem and keyless works to stay in the movement seems to need me to slightly put some downward pressure on the stem when pulling the stem out. I can’t for the life of me figure out WTF the problem is.

When I do that, I get that the little nob from the setting lever is engaged in the notch on the stem but I cannot for the life of me figure out why it is not staying there.

The stem is brand new.
The keyless cover spring is brand new.
The setting lever is brand new.

I have tried this with about 4 different keyless parts that I had in my parts bin.

I’ve considered just getting the entire movement serviced but if I’m gonna spend that much money, in may as well just switch to a ETA.

Anyone have any ideas as to why this is happening, because it is driving me crazy.





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Specter1000

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Usually happens with a bad setting lever or worn stem....but you say those are new. What about the setting lever jumper? is it in level and fully seated on the setting lever? Other than that, there aren't any other parts. What about the maniplate...the hole the stem fits through might be worn oversized and have too much play...allowing the stem to release from the setting lever?
 
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bc1221

Put Some Respect On My Name
30/4/14
4,079
453
83
Usually happens with a bad setting lever or worn stem....but you say those are new. What about the setting lever jumper? is it in level and fully seated on the setting lever? Other than that, there aren't any other parts. What about the maniplate...the hole the stem fits through might be worn oversized and have too much play...allowing the stem to release from the setting lever?

Pretty much everything on this watch is new. The keyless got disengaged once and this has been going on. Got the watch from mary a few months ago and I modded it some so I can understand why the keyless got disengaged and the jumper and setting lever may have gotten a little worn down. That’s why I got new ones. Still. No luck.

Aside from the scratches I’ve been putting on the main plate from removing and reinstalling parts,
There is no damage to the main plate.

The stem is new. I even tried using the old stem that came with the watch and it didn’t work out. I cannot figure out what the problem could possibly be.

Today, I noticed that the little “button” on the winding bride was not as visible as it should be so I wondered if the winding bridge was not screwed in completely. It was missing a screw. Not one that really made that much of a difference but I found a screw for it and screwed it down. Still, no joy.

Ugh. This is driving me crazy.





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Specter1000

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I wonder if there is a burr on one of the parts (where it fits over the dowels) or on the dowels themselves causing a part not to seat correctly?
 

Specter1000

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I would strip the keyless down again and put in the stem and setting lever. I would then push on the setting lever with some downward pressure with a toothpick or peg wood and see if you can cycle the stem through its range and see if it pulls out. If it stays in place, your stem and setting lever is ok and you need to move to the next part of the assy. just work through piece by piece and see if you can work the keyless each time to find the bad piece.

and make sure the yoke spring is engaged properly...that darn thing has screwed me up a couple of times if you don't set it right.
 
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KJ2020

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I have on occasion needed to bend down the far right arm on the setting lever spring to exert more downward force on the setting lever. Be careful it can break but I've succeeded at increasing that bend and that force by quite a bit. Another time I very lightly sanded the stem knurl that pushes the setting lever retaining pin up and out of the way. I had measured it to be a few hundredths of a mm larger than the one it replaced.

Also had one where the the setting lever pin that works with the right hook on the operating lever kept getting dislodged on stem insertion. I found I could use a needle in a pin vise to force the side edge of the operating lever hook toward 12 o'clock (through the stem hole), and the setting lever pin would recouple with the operating lever. So in that scenario I had to insert the stem, let the dislodge occur, recouple the setting lever manually, then put the movement in the case and insert the stem permanently. In the process I discovered that this resulted in the same conditions that would occur if I just put the stem back in with the keyless in position 2. Go figure. Once the stem was in it held normally.
 

Specter1000

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you have to be a little OCD in this hobby...and I totally understand how this would drive you nuts!
 

bc1221

Put Some Respect On My Name
30/4/14
4,079
453
83
I would strip the keyless down again and put in the stem and setting lever. I would then push on the setting lever with some downward pressure with a toothpick or peg wood and see if you can cycle the stem through its range and see if it pulls out. If it stays in place, your stem and setting lever is ok and you need to move to the next part of the assy. just work through piece by piece and see if you can work the keyless each time to find the bad piece.

and make sure the yoke spring is engaged properly...that darn thing has screwed me up a couple of times if you don't set it right.

Yea. I’ve done that and with a little more downward pressure, it stays in place. So there is something that’s causing this to put not enough pressure on it. Maybe bend the spring back keyless spring plate?


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bc1221

Put Some Respect On My Name
30/4/14
4,079
453
83
I have on occasion needed to bend down the far right arm on the setting lever spring to exert more downward force on the setting lever. Be careful it can break but I've succeeded at increasing that bend and that force by quite a bit. Another time I very lightly sanded the stem knurl that pushes the setting lever retaining pin up and out of the way. I had measured it to be a few hundredths of a mm larger than the one it replaced.

Also had one where the the setting lever pin that works with the right hook on the operating lever kept getting dislodged on stem insertion. I found I could use a needle in a pin vise to force the side edge of the operating lever hook toward 12 o'clock (through the stem hole), and the setting lever pin would recouple with the operating lever. So in that scenario I had to insert the stem, let the dislodge occur, recouple the setting lever manually, then put the movement in the case and insert the stem permanently. In the process I discovered that this resulted in the same conditions that would occur if I just put the stem back in with the keyless in position 2. Go figure. Once the stem was in it held normally.

Yea. That’s what I started to do last night. It seems to sit in place a little better. Bending the damn thing is scary bc it breaks very easily. It seems to be in place better than it was before but still pops out on occasion. I’m thinking once i get it in the case and put the tabs on, it would put more downward pressure on the plate and hopefully stay in place. I’m pretty sure I can keep the stem in and put the dial and movement in the case. Then I can seat the hands.

I’m gonna try that today but first I need to put the dial feet on and glue the overlay on.

Today is gonna busy day (I hope).

Thanks for all the tips fellas.

I’ll try your suggestions today and see how it turns out.


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bc1221

Put Some Respect On My Name
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Bending the spring back plate quite a bit seems to have done the trick for now. It still pops out some times and it still have some play but not nearly as much as it used to. I’ll keep it this way for now and hope it stays this way until I get everything reassembled.

*crossing my fingers*

Thanks fellas


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bc1221

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I think I finally got it to sit in there. I’ve tested it about as much as I possibly can without wearing down everything and anything.

I do have a back up eta spring back plate or lever or whatever that thing is called on the way from Clark’s just in case.

I’m hoping to be able to get this build done by thanksgiving and I will be very thankful for that.

:)


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bc1221

Put Some Respect On My Name
30/4/14
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453
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Ok so i found out what the issue was. It was the main plate. It still would not set completely so I bought a replacement movement but had spare parts to fix the broken one but using a different main plate. Everything fit like a charm.

Now I have a different problem. The damn crown wheel on the fixed one will not wind. Argh! I guess my next build will just be automatic only. Lol.

Thanks for the tips fellas!

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KJ2020

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Click spring seated properly against the click? It can slip under the click, most annoying!
 

bc1221

Put Some Respect On My Name
30/4/14
4,079
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Click spring seated properly against the click? It can slip under the click, most annoying!

I think you replied to the wrong thread bud. Hehe.

Then... I found an odd problem that I have yet to see.
I went back to the new movement that I bought. Completed the build. Put everything back together. Had the dates lined up and everything. Then pop! Stem came out again. I took the keyless out to see wtf happened this time. Then I saw something I haven’t seen before. The little bar that pivots the control arm broke off and was still in the hole. It’s what you push in to remove the stem. I’ve never seen that happen before. Luckily I had another one and was able to get it fixed but damn. I have never seen or heard of the little bar breaking off. Not just breaking off but it fell out of the arm. There’s a little hole where the bar used to be.

I won’t lie. It took me about 15 mins to try to figure out how to get that little arm out and then I realized the dumb had got me. Lol. I just pushed the release button from the bottom and it came out. I lol’d after realizing how dumb that problem was to solve. Lol

The next problem to fix is the damn dial feet. They broke off when trying to install. NCRich was kind enough to send me 3 sets a few weeks back but only 1 pair made it to me without breaking so now I need to hunt down some more and I really don’t have any use for more than a set or 2. Ugh.

Well. At least now, I have 2 working movements. I can use the other one for my 1016. Just need a dial and hands for that one. Don’t want it to be an expensive build so I’ll prob end up going with a raffles set.




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bc1221

Put Some Respect On My Name
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You said you had a new problem with the crown wheel not winding, that's why I suggested looking at the click and click spring.

I buy dial feet in bulk cases, they are cheap even though most go unused

https://www.ebay.com/itm/60x-Copper...420220&hash=item4ae372c27b:g:a0EAAOSwkwxdqYl2

Oh. Haha I thought you were trying to reply to the “oh crap” thread where I posted about click springs flying away. Lol.

Yea. I’ve checked everything on that crown wheel the parts around it. Everything seems to be correct but it’s just not hitting it for some reason. Idk. I’m close to giving up on that movement and save it for parts.

I saw that and considered ordering it but I have no use for THAT many dial feet. With my luck, The first pair I use will sit perfectly and the rest will get unused. *sigh. If you wanna sell me a few sets, I’ll gladly buy a few from ya.



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Oascom

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Do you plan to glue the feet to the dial? It's such a small surface the feet might not hold the dial all that good. Unless you want to solder them.

Another option is to just use dial dots.
 

bc1221

Put Some Respect On My Name
30/4/14
4,079
453
83
Do you plan to glue the feet to the dial? It's such a small surface the feet might not hold the dial all that good. Unless you want to solder them.

Another option is to just use dial dots.


Yea, thats what i ended up doing for now. The clearance for the date wheel isnt as good. It slowly turns, which sucks. May add a layer of masking tape to the spacer ring (old TC style lol) and see if that clears it since I have plenty or room for the hour post.