VS3235 movement timing/amp issues

[Ylijumala]

Hi guys, I received a post-raid VSF 126610LN from a TD recently and the movement is exhibiting strange issues:

• amplitude is low at slightly over 200 at "full" wind
• feedback from mainspring slippage when winding at near full wind is not consistent but jittery, as if the spring tail piece isn't slipping properly
• the timing changes drastically between dial down and dial up positions

Looks like I received a lemon, but I would still like to ask from the experts whether this movement is salvageable (easily) or should I just press for a replacement movement from the TD. I did not receive timegrapher pics during the QC which, looking back, could be exactly because of this...

I already have tried demagnetizing the movement even though my cellphone's magnetic sensor does not show any spikes. Was worth a try I guess. Also all efforts trying to regulate the movement end up changing timings (and also beat error) even more drastically than the dial up/down changes. I have successfully regulated 2x VS3135, another VS3235 and 4x N4130 movements so I am familiar with the drill. Shock springs seem to be in place and there are no obvious faults visible, even in microscope pics.

Movement pic:

Timing errors on the timegrapher:



Timings after running some time (30min and 6h I recall):

 

[WatchSmith.US]

I don't claim to be an expert. I have two 3235s that had the balances replaced with gen balances and they run perfectly now. Like yours, amplitude and rate were all over the place and I could never get them regulated properly. I'm not sure what happened but something in the rep balance can make it unpredictable. I think it can only be the hairspring causing the trouble, if the trouble is in the balance and not elsewhere. Maybe that's what going on with yours. I hope it's something simpler than mine, because I have two 3235 balances in my junk drawer that are useless except for spare parts (jewels and springs). Good luck getting a replacement movement from a TD. They could never get me one. I hope someone has a more positive reply than mine.

 

[p0pperini]

should I just press for a replacement movement from the TD.

It will be interesting to hear if you have any luck there. Normally the TD response will be "send it back to us" (which none of us wants to do, right?). The normal alternative is to get it fixed locally, let the TD know the cost, and then receive a discount off your next purchase from them. But if you're experienced enough to know it's buggered, then the next step would be order a new one from Aliexpress or from one of the members here who sells them M2M (like thrillofhunt, for instance).

But hey, maybe the TD in this case will be feeling generous, or you have a particularly good relationship with them.

 

[KJ2020]

Agree with Triplock , if you have erratic timing issues with one of these chances for recovery are not great IME. I also have 2 useless VS balance assemblies in my parts drawer and replaced the movement with a VR3235.

You can try cleaning the balance assembly, I use One Dip for balances. Afterward the underside of the jewel needs to be re-lubed which sometimes can be a royal PITA, even for experienced tinkerers.

BTW the lift angle on the VS3235 is 55, this will increase your amp 10 -15° but you have bigger problems than this.

If it were mine I would just replace it with a VR3235.

 

[Ylijumala]

I don't claim to be an expert. I have two 3235s that had the balances replaced with gen balances and they run perfectly now. Like yours, amplitude and rate were all over the place and I could never get them regulated properly. I'm not sure what happened but something in the rep balance can make it unpredictable. I think it can only be the hairspring causing the trouble, if the trouble is in the balance and not elsewhere. Maybe that's what going on with yours. I hope it's something simpler than mine, because I have two 3235 balances in my junk drawer that are useless except for spare parts (jewels and springs). Good luck getting a replacement movement from a TD. They could never get me one. I hope someone has a more positive reply than mine.

I have considered the gen balance route and I might well go that way if the TD is unreasonable. Was just genuinely surprised how badly this particular sample behaves as the other VS movements I have are running close to gen spec (temperature variance excluded). Guess I will have to strip this one down and check the mainspring too while I'm at it, as the winding response feels really weird compared to all other Rolex clone movements I have.

At least I can try to make a learning experience out of this

 

[Ylijumala]

Normally the TD response will be "send it back to us" (which none of us wants to do, right?).

Yeah, not gonna happen lol. Surefire way to lose both the monies _and_ the watch

The normal alternative is to get it fixed locally, let the TD know the cost, and then receive a discount off your next purchase from them. But if you're experienced enough to know it's buggered, then the next step would be order a new one from Aliexpress or from one of the members here who sells them M2M (like thrillofhunt, for instance).

Was hoping the TD could source a plain movement with a slight discount, but maybe I'll just do as you suggest. Was a test buy from this TD so chances prolly are slim.

 

[Ylijumala]

if you have erratic timing issues with one of these chances for recovery are not great IME. I also have 2 useless VS balance assemblies kn my parts drawer and replaced the movement with a VR3235.

Ah bummer. Does not bode well for the resuscitation then

You can try cleaning the balance assembly, I use One Dip for balances. Afterward the underside of the jewel needs to be re-lubed which sometimes can be a royal PITA, even for experienced tinkerers.

I already was contemplating to strip the whole movement down and try doing a "proper" service so...

BTW the lift angle on the VS3235 is 55, this will increase your amp 10 -15° but you have bigger problems than this.

I know, but thanks for the reminder, just forgot to change the timegrapher setting for that particular run. I took this into account though ("amplitude is low at slightly over 200").

 

[WatchSmith.US]

KJ2020 has the easiest solution. Just replace with a VR3235.

The 3235 barrel and mainspring are designed to be replaced as a unit, as the barrel has been made much thinner to accommodate the longer spring. So I don't know if it's practical or safe to service the spring without distorting the thin barrel. But it seems like I saw a pic of someone who had taken one apart...Oascom maybe.

 

[H3096]

May I ask which one do you prefer between a Clean DJ41 VR3235 and a VSF VS3235? Because I thougt that the VS3235 is better, but I am seeing that you prefer the VR3235.

Thank you.

 

[Ylijumala]

May I ask which one do you prefer between a Clean DJ41 VR3235 and a VSF VS3235? Because I thougt that the VS3235 is better, but I am seeing that you prefer the VR3235.

If you ask me, I prefer the VS (Dandong) movement. It is a true clone and takes genuine parts, which is not the case with the VR 3235 (which is mostly a VR 3135 with some changed parts to accommodate a 3235 datewheel for example). YMMV of course, people prefer different things.

 

[Ylijumala]

you have bigger problems than this

I spoke with a local watch smith (with proper education in the field) and his diagnosis (without seeing the movement) was that the timing issue is likely due to damage in the balance assembly, either the balance staff or the jewel(s). The big tell according to him is the large variation caused by positional changes. I'll strip down the movement and see if I can spot what the issue actually is. If it cannot be easily fixed, I guess I'll source a gen balance assembly and bridge, was intending to do that anyway sooner or later.

Barrel should be relatively easy to "fix", as that indeed requires getting a genuine one as well

Thanks everyone for the help, I'll try to keep this thread updated with pics during the process.

 

[H3096]

If you ask me, I prefer the VS (Dandong) movement. It is a true clone and takes genuine parts, which is not the case with the VR 3235 (which is mostly a VR 3135 with some changed parts to accommodate a 3235 datewheel for example). YMMV of course, people prefer different things.

Thank you for your help. I appreciate it a lot, because I am thinking about getting a VSF but I got worried reading the balance wheel problems.

Regards!

 

[WatchSmith.US]

.
This is one of my defective VS3235 balance wheels. The drilling on the underside of the wheel is very poorly done, but I don't think that has anything to do with its poor operation.

The distance between the hairspring turnings is tighter on the left side than on the right. Once a gen balance and bridge was installed, the movement ran like a champion. With the stock VS balance it runs like a 3 legged dog with greatly varying rate, beat error, and especially positional variations, and no normal adjustments could make it run correctly. Maybe it's out of poise or the collet has slipped....I don't know. So now it lives in the parts bin.

 

[melody]

I don't claim to be an expert. I have two 3235s that had the balances replaced with gen balances and they run perfectly now. Like yours, amplitude and rate were all over the place and I could never get them regulated properly. I'm not sure what happened but something in the rep balance can make it unpredictable. I think it can only be the hairspring causing the trouble, if the trouble is in the balance and not elsewhere. Maybe that's what going on with yours. I hope it's something simpler than mine, because I have two 3235 balances in my junk drawer that are useless except for spare parts (jewels and springs). Good luck getting a replacement movement from a TD. They could never get me one. I hope someone has a more positive reply than mine.

Who did your balance replacement and what parts are necessary? I want that done so I can regulate with microstella.

 

[WatchSmith.US]

Who did your balance replacement and what parts are necessary? I want that done so I can regulate with microstella.

I do my own work. You will need both a gen balance and gen balance bridge.

 

[melody]

I do my own work. You will need both a gen balance and gen balance bridge.

I can get those no problem but someone else said I had to broach the holes and tried to made it sound really difficult but it didn't sound that hard. I wanted to see what you had to do other than drop in.

 

[Ylijumala]

With the stock VS balance it runs like a 3 legged dog with greatly varying rate, beat error, and especially positional variations, and no normal adjustments could make it run correctly.

Exactly the same symptoms as I have here. Will be interesting to see what mine looks like.

 

[WatchSmith.US]

I can get those no problem but someone else said I had to broach the holes and tried to made it sound really difficult but it didn't sound that hard. I wanted to see what you had to do other than drop in.

The gen balance bridge is very tight and will have to be "snapped" into place. This is rather unnerving since you have delicate balance wheel pivots and mine wouldn't settle to the mainplate without force. My remedy was to test fit the bridge several times (without the balance attached) as I used a cutting broach to gradually open the holes. Once I got a nice fit without having to force it down, I removed it, set the balance into the movement, then lowered the bridge into place and tightened the screws. Last thing was to tighten the hairspring to the bridge. Broaching isn't difficult, but you have to go slow and be careful to remove the right amount of metal without going too far.

 

[melody]

The gen balance bridge is very tight and will have to be "snapped" into place. This is rather unnerving since you have delicate balance wheel pivots and mine wouldn't settle to the mainplate without force. My remedy was to test fit the bridge several times (without the balance attached) as I used a cutting broach to gradually open the holes. Once I got a nice fit without having to force it down, I removed it, set the balance into the movement, then lowered the bridge into place and tightened the screws. Last thing was to tighten the hairspring to the bridge. Broaching isn't difficult, but you have to go slow and be careful to remove the right amount of metal without going too far.

I think I can handle the broaching I will just wait until I get a bonus and use it for the bridge so I will feel less bad if i mess it up. One last question. What broach would you recommend? Was this done on a lathe or press, or by hand?
oh also. Was your balance regulated when you recieved it or will I have to regulate it?

 

[WatchSmith.US]

I think I can handle the broaching I will just wait until I get a bonus and use it for the bridge so I will feel less bad if i mess it up. One last question. What broach would you recommend? Was this done on a lathe or press, or by hand?
oh also. Was your balance regulated when you recieved it or will I have to regulate it?

I broached by hand. I have an assortment of broaches and don’t remember which one I used.
Every gen balance I’ve installed in rep or gen movements has been around +10 seconds or so and I have tweaked the rate on all of them.