Grand Seiko Finishing Comparison

[Ams55557]

Commonly, people ask the question whether or not reps exist of various Grand Seiko models.

The answer is typically: “No, Grand Seikos probably wouldn’t be cloned because the movement is too complicated and the finishing it too fine and the market is too small”

You can read about the incredible spring drive here: https://timelessluxwatches.com/revie...g-drive-works/

I think once you realize how unique the movement is and realize that most reps use one of 3 Asian cloned movements (2824, 2836, 7750) or close derivatives you’ll realize that no one will spend the millions it will take to clone that movement.

But what about the finishing? How much better can it be?

I took some micro shots of my Grand Seiko, Rep Breitling, Gen Breitling, and NOOB Daytona with gen Hands to let you compare them for yourself. The GS is nearly impossible to take this level of photographs because it is so reflective and damn near perfect finishing its hard to figure out what to shoot. Also, its important to note that you can’t really see any of the blemishes which are so obvious in these shots. The reality is that it may or may not matter to you. But I hope this helps explain what we mean when the finishing isn’t likely to be replicated

The line up

GS sgbm387

Gen Navi

Rep Navi

Daytona with gen hands

Hands:, Rep Navi , Gen Navi , Daytona Gen Hands, GS

Rep Navi:

Gen Navi

Noob Daytona, Gen Hands

GS, PR Hand:

GS Hour Hand

 

[Ams55557]

Date Window

Rep Navi:

Gen Navi:



GS:




Center Pinion:

Rep Navi:

Gen Navi:



Daytona:



GS:





Dial Markers: Rap Navi:



Gen Navi:



Daytona:



GS:

 

[GingerBubba]

Next level finishing, the markers too. I love a bit of GS!

 

[Bombardier]

No surprise, Japanese technology and craftsmanship innit

 

[Brunswick]

Oh damnnnnn. It's so fine tuned. Reps will never get to this consistency at their current prices. GS is definitely payign for perfection or at least as close as you can get

 

[sfbatman787]

GS is just impeccably done

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[Hinclimincli]

The Zaratsu Polishing on the Grand Seikos is one of the most astounding techniques ever seen. Check this out: https://www.timepiecesblog.com/2019/12/09/zaratsu-polishing/

"As opposed to applying the case to the outer edge of a soft wheel made of a material such as cotton, zaratsu uses the flat broad part of a hard, abrasive surface to polish the case. Due to the delicate touch necessary, zaratsu finishing can only be done by hand, by few highly skilled craftsmen. It is said that the craftsmen can tell when a case is completed based on the sound and feel."

Polishing a case against a hard abrasive wheel. That requires massive balls of steel, mate. Add this technique to the legendary Taro Tanaka's "Grammar of Design" and you have a watch designed in a way that all case, bezels, markers, hands, etc, reflect upon each other in the precise angle to give it a really stunning look: https://wornandwound.com/art-time-taro-tanaka-seikos-grammar-design/

And that's without talking about the incredibly precise hybrid movement, the Spring Drive, which deserves a separate post. Grand Seikos are no joke, congratulations on yours mate, it's a really beautiful watch.

 

[YellowFin]

Seiko does a nice job with their GS line, but other high end watches look similar regarding their finishing. Below are some markers from my collection. Considering that a big portion of the "gen upcharge" comes from the manual finishing work, I'm still surprised how rep factories achieve this level of detail. Of course, the main difference to gens is the consistency from piece to piece. But if you get a good rep, it can be really good.

 

[YellowFin]

Here's some more gen and rep shots. Trying to fight the Corona bore-out.

 

[Ams55557]

YellowFin hey mate go back and tag rep vs gen

 

[YellowFin]

YellowFin hey mate go back and tag rep vs gen

First post - AT white dial gen, other 3 reps. Second post - only AP is a rep, the others gen.

 

[mech500]

Wow. Nice post. The best finished reps in terms of clean hands and markers (Under loupe) are VSF AT and some POs.


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[SuperLory]

i'll pee against the wind here saying that no matter how nicely finished and how good an hybrid (quartz are good aye we didnt need a 5K watch telling us) movement is, those GS look and feel meh in real life.

Personal opinion obviously, but I dont see them surging at horology icons yet

 

[sfbatman787]

i'll pee against the wind here saying that no matter how nicely finished and how good an hybrid (quartz are good aye we didnt need a 5K watch telling us) movement is, those GS look and feel meh in real life.

Personal opinion obviously, but I dont see them surging at horology icons yet

I do somewhat agree with you. Though GS is trying to be more innovative and I do give them credit for that. GS suffers from the same curse as Lexus, it is somewhat considered luxury but will never come close to Audi/BMW even though they are a lot more reliable than their German competitors.

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[CurioLeo]

i'll pee against the wind here saying that no matter how nicely finished and how good an hybrid (quartz are good aye we didnt need a 5K watch telling us) movement is, those GS look and feel meh in real life.

Personal opinion obviously, but I dont see them surging at horology icons yet

Not if the Hodinkee boys have anything to do with it - they talk up GS every chance they get. Jack Foster invariably picks a GS whenever a poll of preferred XXXX model to wear for YYYYY activity is run by Hodinkee. However, I do agree that, despite having a GS for every occasion, they aren't the first watch I reach for. BUT.....once you get it in on your wrist, you will catch a glimpse at some point in the day and sometimes do a double take. I know, it is strange - the absolute definition of sailing under the radar.

 

[CurioLeo]

I do somewhat agree with you. Though GS is trying to be more innovative and I do give them credit for that. GS suffers from the same curse as Lexus, it is somewhat considered luxury but will never come close to Audi/BMW even though they are a lot more reliable than their German competitors.

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When you say GS is trying to be more innovative, bear in mind that they were literally created with the mission statement of making the best watch in the world - period. They were so successful at meeting that goal that chronometer competitions were shut down and Seiko was booted out banned from participating in future submissions. Their response ? Only to guarantee vastly superior performance for 2 years (60s / month for a mechanical watch in the 60s) AND also destroy typical accuracy targets by introducing quartz movements, bringing the Swiss watch industry to its knees. The Swiss response ? Fall back on so-called "superior" quality offered by hand finishing, thereby justifying exorbitant prices. Seiko's response ? Zaratsu finishing and Spring Drive (ala OG post) - they have a frigging quartz movement with a sapphire caseback for crying out loud (see SBGV238). There is absolutely no "trying" to be more innovative here on Seiko's behalf - only a Eurocentric snobbery which is not justified in any shape or form.

 

[SuperLory]

When you say GS is trying to be more innovative, bear in mind that they were literally created with the mission statement of making the best watch in the world - period. They were so successful at meeting that goal that chronometer competitions were shut down and Seiko was booted out banned from participating in future submissions. Their response ? Only to guarantee vastly superior performance for 2 years (60s / month for a mechanical watch in the 60s) AND also destroy typical accuracy targets by introducing quartz movements, bringing the Swiss watch industry to its knees. The Swiss response ? Fall back on so-called "superior" quality offered by hand finishing, thereby justifying exorbitant prices. Seiko's response ? Zaratsu finishing and Spring Drive (ala OG post) - they have a frigging quartz movement with a sapphire caseback for crying out loud (see SBGV238). There is absolutely no "trying" to be more innovative here on Seiko's behalf - only a Eurocentric snobbery which is not justified in any shape or form.

sure. Then there are intangible qualities and here the plot twists..

 

[CurioLeo]

sure. Then there are intangible qualities and here the plot twists..

But thats what I mean - the intangibles are predominantly fabricated "wank" factors to justify maintaining a superiority complex. Rolex is pretty much the only other manufacturer that does everything in-house. Last time I checked, they didn't have a 140 year history and it was strictly a tool watch company at its inception, until the "intangibles" sold to the world by the best marketing / branding machine around transitioned Rolex into the ultimate prestige symbol for the masses.

 

[Ams55557]

Everyone can have their own opinion on everything.

I think however, if you were to create a quantifiable measure of “finish quality when examined under a 25x microscope” we could in fact prove what we all know:

• Reps would, in general score lower than their gen counter part
• Gens would, in general score higher than most reps
• Some gens would score considerably higher than other gems consistent with brand
• There may be little to no correlation between cost, “prestige” and finish quality
• It is possible that at some point the rep market place matches current day finish quality of some gens.

of course none of this really matters in the overall scheme of things. (I’m talking to you mr. Redditor who finds this post in 2023 wondering if reps are as good as gens...no one cares about what’s on your wrist. Just get both the reps you are looking at from the td).

 

[CurioLeo]

Everyone can have their own opinion on everything.

I think however, if you were to create a quantifiable measure of “finish quality when examined under a 25x microscope” we could in fact prove what we all know:

• Reps would, in general score lower than their gen counter part
• Gens would, in general score higher than most reps
• Some gens would score considerably higher than other gems consistent with brand
• There may be little to no correlation between cost, “prestige” and finish quality
• It is possible that at some point the rep market place matches current day finish quality of some gens.

of course none of this really matters in the overall scheme of things. (I’m talking to you mr. Redditor who finds this post in 2023 wondering if reps are as good as gens...no one cares about what’s on your wrist. Just get both the reps you are looking at from the td).

Well put, design being the only intangible that truly matters so buy what appeals to you on your wrist. Where the Swiss currently/ still have rhe clear edge is in the sheer range of design choice. I love Carrier Santos 2018 in almost all of its iterations - no such choice with a GS. I love my soon to be completed super special franken AP Bartorelli diver - again, no such choice with GS. Of course, GS might delve into all sorts of other design options but they can't stray too far from the aesthetic of a GS or they revert to being Seiko - million and one design options for all occasions manufactured to a decent standard. Rep standards have improved to the point where a top rep may not he be finished to the standard as its gen counterpart but it's certainly a gen calibre watch nevertheless . In some cases, lime the VSF Omega above, it us damn close to gen counterpart even.